Edward Barder barbus maximus

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Macko
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Re: Edward Barder barbus maximus

Post by Macko » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:38 pm

I believe Chris insisted the CB allrounder should be impregnated cane

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Mark
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Re: Edward Barder barbus maximus

Post by Mark » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:54 pm

Macko wrote:I believe Chris insisted the CB allrounder should be impregnated cane

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Which is confirmed by Chris in this thread, towards the end of the film

viewtopic.php?f=303&t=5091
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Re: Edward Barder barbus maximus

Post by Wallys-Cast » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:14 pm

Very informative Mark, though I don't believe they were still using animal glue on rods in 1952. They had been using casein or urea-formaldehyde adhesives in boat and aircraft building for donkeys years before that.


Wal.

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Re: Edward Barder barbus maximus

Post by SeanM » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:45 pm

An interesting discussion!

If anyone fancies reading further on the subject of split cane, its structure and the part moisture plays in how it behaves the following link will be of great interest:

http://www.powerfibers.com/html/downloads.html

The two articles entitled Bamboo in the Laboratory and Bamboo Under the Microscope make interesting reading.

We tend to talk learnedly about tempering and how it affects the behaviour and properties of split cane. In fact there appears to be a belief that we can temper cane in the same manner as we temper steel. When we temper steel we change the structure of the metal, but when we temper cane all we do is drive off water. Wolfram describes this process and its reverse (the reabsorption of the water) better than I can. The only water that is not reabsorbed is the water that was originally bound up in the cells. The problem with driving off this cell-bound water is that we come dangerously close to degrading the chemical structure of the cane so extreme care is required.
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Re: Edward Barder barbus maximus

Post by Nobby » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:29 am

I was just going to ask you if I could link to that Sean...I still have it as a saved document....not that I understand it :oops:

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Re: Edward Barder barbus maximus

Post by SeanM » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:23 pm

Just look at the pictures Nobby! :Hahaha:

One thing that does occur to me is that if we temper cane and then impregnate it we probably stop the reabsorption of water. Does this stop the cane "softening" with time or does the resin have the same effect as water? The increase in strength caused by heating is largely due to shrinkage so if the impregnation doesn't cause swelling then impregnated cane may hold its properties longer than cane that has just been heat treated.
Quot homines, tot sententiae. (And now we are 6!)

MHC

Re: Edward Barder barbus maximus

Post by MHC » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:35 pm

The first (and only) bamboo rod that I bought was impregnated, it was made by Partridge. It felt fine to me, the reason that few impregnate their rods is that it is tricky to do and it almost takes you away from the essence of making and using bamboo. Plus most of us don't feel the need to.
Interesting articles posted SeanM, I liked the bamboo in the lab one. Very technical, they bore out my point that bamboo rods take up or give back amient moisture, and no varnish can stop it. However the author writes that most or all ambient moisture will enter again given time. I have read of other lab experiments which claim that at most 50% can return, using weighed samples.
Opinion is divided also upon the virtues of heat treating, for me taking out moisture is not the prime reason . The main purpose is to relax the bound and triangulated strips and ensure they conform to each other. Important for us hand planers. I am also sure there is an effect at the molecular level as if overheated, but not so much as to change the tone, they can feel very brittle to plane.

With all the talk here of splitting ferrules and bamboo becoming soft when wet and peeling varnish, I did an experiment of my own. I took the handle from a discarded 6wt fly rod that I made, measured it across the flats and immersed it in a glass of water. The end was open but the blank had been varnished with poly. varnish. After 24 hours in water measured across the same flat the size had increased 11 thou." A further 24 hours later of immersion there was a mere 4 thou." further increase. A thou." is about the diameter of a human hair.
Examination revealed that the varnish remained intact, neither splitting at the corners nor peeling away. The end grain was darker and that darkness had crept up under the varnish for half an inch or so. The end grain bamboo remained as hard to my nail as before, as did the varnished flats. I conclude that this small amount of swelling would not split even the thinnest walled n/silver ferrules (which I have used for some years) , also notable was that it did not continue to absorb water and swell further.
I mean to do another experiment on an un- varnished sample of rod blank.

Malcolm

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Wallys-Cast
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Re: Edward Barder barbus maximus

Post by Wallys-Cast » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:24 pm

Hi Malcolm, I certainly don't expect a ferrule to split in a few days, it is more likely they split from metal fatigue from the expanding and contracting over the years and I don't think nickel silver will be any more resistant to fatigue than brass, after all they are both basically alloys of copper and zinc. The nickel content being more important for aesthetics and perhaps salt resistance than strength.

The varnish (especially true of modern varnishes) when new is very elastic and will accept a far greater amount of stretch and flex so will not crack until a far greater amount of time has passed. However moisture trapped under the varnish will take its toll on the cane and glue, thin tip sections in particular being at greater risk of failure and softening.

No I think it may take years for a ferrule to split even if stored in a constant humid/dry, humid/dry conditions (damp loft or garage) but if the rod is stored properly it will be more likely that the ferrule is replaced because it has worn out by use rather than failing by fatigue.

You say in your experiment with moisture absorption that the moisture has crept up the cane half an inch in just 24 hours, that is quite a lot more than I would have expected and at that rate it wouldn't take too long to reach the full length of a ferrule and beyond. A perfect reason then to seal the end grain by closing off the ferrule or frequently waxing the end grain of the cane.
This is something us carpenters, wood turners, cabinet makers etc do to naturally season timber slowly by allowing slow drying and not allowing moisture to return up the end grain which can cause splitting and shaking.

Keep us informed of your experiments it will be interesting to hear how things progress.

Wal.

MHC

Re: Edward Barder barbus maximus

Post by MHC » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:43 pm

I thought it best to continue this discussion in the 'Rodbuilding and Restoring' section...and have posted there.

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Re: Edward Barder barbus maximus

Post by Nobby » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:50 pm

15 thou? Same measurement as contact breaker points for those who remember them....quite a bit then.

I think it's always brass ferrules that split. John Chapman believes the brass 'work-hardens' over time( his words).

I'm not sure work-harden is the correct term...an engineer would use that term where metal has become brittle from being flexed, whereas in a ferrule it seems to have become brittle simply due to time passing, which rather suggests that brass might be unstable in some way?

It does seem that 'work' might have some relevance though, so often the ferrules split on whole cane butts and these do seem, generally, to have been forced onto somewhat over-size cane so often, indeed frequently one sees that the barass has been stretched into a taper ....hardly surprising it splits.

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