Sorting out the speedia...

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Watermole+
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Re: Sorting out the speedia...

Post by Watermole+ » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:05 pm

Unfortunately Sean, that might not solve the problem, only compound it.
If appreciable wear is present between spindle and the bush bearing, then almost certainly both are affected. In all probability, the spindle has worn barrel shaped at the ends and the bush has flared out. If you only want to replace the spindle, then it would be much better to have the bush carefully bored out true but oversize and then have a new spindle made to suit.
As a guide to clearance between the two, the ideal gap for a running fit should be a little less than 0.003" per one inch of diameter, so if for example, the spindle is nominally 1/4" (0.250"), then the bush should be bored to 0.2507" to give the best fit.

The contact point between end float adjusting grub screw and spindle is often the cause of bad running and one of the best solutions-if not the best of all-is to carefully recess a hole into the ends of both spindle and grub screw and lightly press fit a tiny ball bearing in to both. The contact area is so small as to be virtually frictionless!

Regards,

wm+

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? Yet one of them shall not fall without your Father knoweth" ..Jesus of Nazareth, King James AV

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Nobby
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Re: Sorting out the speedia...

Post by Nobby » Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:43 am

Sean, that's what a lot of the reel restorers actually do, rather than re-bush the spool. I guess they measure the bushing somehow and make a spindle, or centrepin, to suit? presumably there's more wear at the bottom than the top...???

Ducati bikes eh, Beryl? I too was fascinated by the desmodronic valve gear, back in the Seventies, but it wasn't 'till the Eighties I finally got to work on a Pantah V twin...bit low on grunt, but it flew!

Beryl

Re: Sorting out the speedia...

Post by Beryl » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:15 pm

Nobby wrote:Sean, that's what a lot of the reel restorers actually do, rather than re-bush the spool. I guess they measure the bushing somehow and make a spindle, or centrepin, to suit? presumably there's more wear at the bottom than the top...???

Ducati bikes eh, Beryl? I too was fascinated by the desmodronic valve gear, back in the Seventies, but it wasn't 'till the Eighties I finally got to work on a Pantah V twin...bit low on grunt, but it flew!
I only worked on the singles. Desmo was pure marketing with these . They used the Desmo kit,but used the none Desmo spring system :) You couldn't over-Rev it but didn't get any of the gains it should of done. I shimmed up a fair few from the 250 to the 900's. It would have been a lovely experience if you thought you were adding performance but, mostly you were making an inherently noisy engine quieter. I hated the Pantah. As you say, no grunt. V-twins should always be about grunt. Always felt, given the tolerances needed , desmodronic only made sense in the racing dept.

I think they have their Mojo back. At least the expensive ones. They seem to have got back that long, loud, offbeat thud. Recalls the 900ss and the tarty Hailwood Replica with the conti non silencers, just slightly muted :Thumb:

Anyways. Went to my local engineering emporium looking for ready made phosphor-bronze bushes and reamers. All the wrong size. Plenty on-line mind. About four quid for a bush. Still need trimming mind. I used to knock up bushes from bar stock to renovate Ducati gear selector boxes. Wondering if my pal sold on the lathe we use to work on?
Still the problem of removing a 'blind bearing before I get ahead of myself.

Beryl

Re: Sorting out the speedia...

Post by Beryl » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:45 pm

I've been having a fiddle with some long handled calipers today, it's on the face of it a crude instrument but it will let you know through your fingers /feel whether there is any change in diameter of a spindle in this particular case. They will also allow to investigate changes in internal diameters but mine are too big. All stuff left over from when I was into engineering. It's all a bit rusty, apart from the micrometer and vernier of course.

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Re: Sorting out the speedia...

Post by SeanM » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:28 pm

Watermole+ wrote:Unfortunately Sean, that might not solve the problem, only compound it.
If appreciable wear is present between spindle and the bush bearing, then almost certainly both are affected. In all probability, the spindle has worn barrel shaped at the ends and the bush has flared out. If you only want to replace the spindle, then it would be much better to have the bush carefully bored out true but oversize and then have a new spindle made to suit.
As a guide to clearance between the two, the ideal gap for a running fit should be a little less than 0.003" per one inch of diameter, so if for example, the spindle is nominally 1/4" (0.250"), then the bush should be bored to 0.2507" to give the best fit.

The contact point between end float adjusting grub screw and spindle is often the cause of bad running and one of the best solutions-if not the best of all-is to carefully recess a hole into the ends of both spindle and grub screw and lightly press fit a tiny ball bearing in to both. The contact area is so small as to be virtually frictionless!

Regards,

wm+
Thanks wm+
I've examined the pin closely and there doesn't seem to be any evidence of wear on it. I didn't think about flaring on the bush, but, as you say, if I can get it bored out slightly I'll get rid of any flare and have a known diameter to work to.

Whilst you might have the skill to press fit a tiny ball into the pin and the grub screw I certainly don't! In fact I came over in a cold sweat just from thinking about attempting it :surrender:

I tend to follow the Nobby procedure of shaping and polishing the mating surfaces to reduce friction.

Thinking about it further I might nip up the road to Mr Lythe and threaten to thump him if he doesn't sort the reel for me :Cool:
Quot homines, tot sententiae. (And now we are 6!)

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SeanM
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Re: Sorting out the speedia...

Post by SeanM » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:36 pm

Nobby wrote:Sean, that's what a lot of the reel restorers actually do, rather than re-bush the spool. I guess they measure the bushing somehow and make a spindle, or centrepin, to suit? presumably there's more wear at the bottom than the top...???

Ducati bikes eh, Beryl? I too was fascinated by the desmodronic valve gear, back in the Seventies, but it wasn't 'till the Eighties I finally got to work on a Pantah V twin...bit low on grunt, but it flew!
It probably wouldn't be too difficult to do by trial fitting the drum with the pin still in the lathe jaws. Assuming that most bushes are flared as Watermole suggested then getting an approximate diameter with a pair of callipers would be a good starting point.

I never fancied working on Demos -all those shims and springs. J much preferred 2 strokes
Quot homines, tot sententiae. (And now we are 6!)

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Watermole+
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Re: Sorting out the speedia...

Post by Watermole+ » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:21 pm

Sean,

Nobby has the right idea regarding shaping and polishing the ends of the spindle and grub screw. It's not that difficult to do, it just requires a degree of patience. If you can get a longer grub screw, try putting one in a drill chuck and with it running SLOWLY, gently file/polish an approximately 90 degree cone shape on the end. It doesn't have to be perfect, but the best finish you can achieve on the contact point, the better will be the result.
Also, try to get a mirror finish on the spindle end. All these little details will help and remember to not have too tight a contact when you set the grub screw. It's better to have a tiny bit of end float than none.

For checking the spindle; if you can get a 0-1" or a 0-25mm outside micrometer, check for ovality at different points on it along the length and also at different facets of the spindle diameter..you may be surprised at the variation!
For checking the bush, in the absence of any internal bore micrometer, try using the shank end of a suitable twist drill. If one goes in easily for about 1/4" then stops, you have appreciable wear, but remember that the shank of any twist dril is always SMALLER than the drill size, so if for example the shank of a 6mm drill just goes in..then the actual size may be only 5.9mm or even less. It's only a rough guide, but it will give you a better idea of where the problem lies.
Be very careful about holding a reel spindle in ordinary, hard lathe jaws as it can easily be damaged or deformed..

Hope this helps..

wm+

As regards motor cycles, my favourite of the 'sixties was a Velocette Thruxton 'Venom'.. A good one would beat any DBD34 Goldie...

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? Yet one of them shall not fall without your Father knoweth" ..Jesus of Nazareth, King James AV

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Match Aerial
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Re: Sorting out the speedia...

Post by Match Aerial » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:48 pm

Some great detailed info lads keep it up ,anyone willing to do a photo demo of the procedure sometime ?

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Nobby
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Re: Sorting out the speedia...

Post by Nobby » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:24 am

I used to polish the end of the grub screw and the tip of the centrepin spindle to a mirror finish with strips of cloth and a dab of Solvol Autosol...sort of buffing across as though you were shining your shoes. If there was any damage or witness marks I used to first polish them out with a small hand-held knife sharpening stone....I say 'used to' because now I'm not so sure it's the right way anymore.....


True, I had some splendid results but just recently I bought a very tidy Speedia on eBay and found that it had a little pit at the end on the centrepin as you often find but this reel spins and spins more than any other reel I have ever held. Just touch a handle and it will spin for a full minute! Give it a right old yank and it spins for wellover three minutes....a time I never thought possible!!

I've come to the conclusion that minimum contact area ....as provided by screw and centrepin having radiused contact areas.....might not be the right approach after all and a little pit, acting as a reservoir for some oil, gives better performance.

Hardy may have recognised this with their Conquest reel; instead of having a grub screw to control end-float they fitted a soft copper slug...you just tap it home to shape it to perfectly reflect the tip of the centrepin...giving a huge contact area that wears very slowly indeed as the co-efficient of friction is so low and spins perfectly.

I think the very last ones made had another metal there though...it doesn't look like copper....but this one shows the copper slug in the middle of the spool

http://englishflyreel.com/images/Hardy% ... %20001.JPG

Beryl

Re: Sorting out the speedia...

Post by Beryl » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:51 am

Phosphor-bronze looks a bit coppery....

Venom eh? Fired every other telegraph pole!

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