Hardy Conquest help ?

A forum to show any of your restored or built traditional fishing reels.
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Lea Dweller
Rainbow Trout
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Re: Hardy Conquest help ?

Post by Lea Dweller » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:57 am

Well done Nobby! you resolved your Conquest problem, but I am sure that many others have not had a good outcome! It never ceases to amaze me how many relatively small things can stop a centrepin revolving freely. I can remember fishing with a brand new Rapidex years ago during a shower and water got into the reel stopping it, sawdust from maggots etc will all stop it revolving properly. I have learned from my mistakes, but you do have to be aware of the pitfalls!
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall!
Confucius

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Wallys-Cast
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Re: Hardy Conquest help ?

Post by Wallys-Cast » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:30 pm

Just a thought about these later reels. I wonder if the bushes are made from Oilite and no lubrication is actually required. I cant find any Hardy details about the reels but the bronze bearing in the centre of the release cap would also make more sense if it was meant to run dry.

I have just taken a reciprocating saw apart to fit a new blade holder and was amazed how little wear if any there was in the Oilite bearings and shaft. This saw is over twenty years old and until about three years ago it was in constant daily use.

I have no mechanical engineering background and no idea if what I am saying makes any real sense but to my mind it would seem a very good idea to fit Oilite bearings to a reel. Clearances could be kept very small without any special engineering process, making assembling the reels easy and apart from cleaning it would be virtually maintenance free.

Wal.

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Hovis
Eel
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Re: Hardy Conquest help ?

Post by Hovis » Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:40 pm

Wallys-Cast wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:30 pm
Just a thought about these later reels. I wonder if the bushes are made from Oilite and no lubrication is actually required. I cant find any Hardy details about the reels but the bronze bearing in the centre of the release cap would also make more sense if it was meant to run dry.

I have just taken a reciprocating saw apart to fit a new blade holder and was amazed how little wear if any there was in the Oilite bearings and shaft. This saw is over twenty years old and until about three years ago it was in constant daily use.

I have no mechanical engineering background and no idea if what I am saying makes any real sense but to my mind it would seem a very good idea to fit Oilite bearings to a reel. Clearances could be kept very small without any special engineering process, making assembling the reels easy and apart from cleaning it would be virtually maintenance free.

Wal.
Interesting thoughts Wal. Certainly the old myford lathes used oilite bearing and they certainly wear! I think they're made from what is in essence powered bronze. When completed they are pourus and actually allow oil with the bearing material itself. Rather old fashioned now I'd think but a fine solution none the less. Really we need meed WM+ comments - I'm sure he'll know more.
I have laid aside business, and gone a'fishing.

Izaak Walton

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Lea Dweller
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Re: Hardy Conquest help ?

Post by Lea Dweller » Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:31 pm

Hovis wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:40 pm
Wallys-Cast wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:30 pm
Just a thought about these later reels. I wonder if the bushes are made from Oilite and no lubrication is actually required. I cant find any Hardy details about the reels but the bronze bearing in the centre of the release cap would also make more sense if it was meant to run dry.

I have just taken a reciprocating saw apart to fit a new blade holder and was amazed how little wear if any there was in the Oilite bearings and shaft. This saw is over twenty years old and until about three years ago it was in constant daily use.

I have no mechanical engineering background and no idea if what I am saying makes any real sense but to my mind it would seem a very good idea to fit Oilite bearings to a reel. Clearances could be kept very small without any special engineering process, making assembling the reels easy and apart from cleaning it would be virtually maintenance free.

Wal.
Interesting thoughts Wal. Certainly the old myford lathes used oilite bearing and they certainly wear! I think they're made from what is in essence powered bronze. When completed they are pourus and actually allow oil with the bearing material itself. Rather old fashioned now I'd think but a fine solution none the less. Really we need meed WM+ comments - I'm sure he'll know more.
I am pretty sure that WM+ uses a Myford Lathe, I remember he allowed me the pleasure of cutting a few shavings from an aluminium billet that he had set up! A wonderful experience! :Hat:
Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall!
Confucius

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Hovis
Eel
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Re: Hardy Conquest help ?

Post by Hovis » Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:26 pm

Lea Dweller wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:31 pm
Hovis wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:40 pm
Wallys-Cast wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:30 pm
Just a thought about these later reels. I wonder if the bushes are made from Oilite and no lubrication is actually required. I cant find any Hardy details about the reels but the bronze bearing in the centre of the release cap would also make more sense if it was meant to run dry.

I have just taken a reciprocating saw apart to fit a new blade holder and was amazed how little wear if any there was in the Oilite bearings and shaft. This saw is over twenty years old and until about three years ago it was in constant daily use.

I have no mechanical engineering background and no idea if what I am saying makes any real sense but to my mind it would seem a very good idea to fit Oilite bearings to a reel. Clearances could be kept very small without any special engineering process, making assembling the reels easy and apart from cleaning it would be virtually maintenance free.

Wal.
Interesting thoughts Wal. Certainly the old myford lathes used oilite bearing and they certainly wear! I think they're made from what is in essence powered bronze. When completed they are pourus and actually allow oil with the bearing material itself. Rather old fashioned now I'd think but a fine solution none the less. Really we need meed WM+ comments - I'm sure he'll know more.
I am pretty sure that WM+ uses a Myford Lathe, I remember he allowed me the pleasure of cutting a few shavings from an aluminium billet that he had set up! A wonderful experience! :Hat:
He does indeed, an myford ML7. Incidentally the same as Chris Lythe. Clearly a capable machine!
I have laid aside business, and gone a'fishing.

Izaak Walton

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Watermole+
Crucian Carp
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Re: Hardy Conquest help ?

Post by Watermole+ » Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:53 am

Going a little off topic now, but just my thoughts about bushes in reels..However, do remember that I am no authority on this and have no recognised qualification on the subject, just general observations, based on experience.

When I first started thinking of making a reel for myself, one of the main points was in fact concerning precisely this..What is the best and most durable metal combination to make a free running bearing from..? I say 'combination' because by definition, any 'bearing' "bears" on another surface and runs against it, either uniformly or on one side (think belt and pulley).
In the case of a fly reel, it doesn't do a terrific amount of work, comparatively speaking, and is seldom under prolonged stress for long periods. In this case, even a mild steel spindle inside a cheap brass bush will last for years! Nevertheless, my first reel was in fact a small fly reel and because I had small quantities of it to hand, I used 17/4 ph for the spindle and a little piece of aluminium / phosphor bronze for the bush. '17/4 ph' sounds very grand doesn't it? and is often used to make people think they are getting something unique or special, but is is merely a much-used type of harden-able stainless steel; quite soft and easy to turn in the annealed state but capable of being hardened by controlled heating then quenching by water spray-hence "ph" means "precipitation (rain) hardening". Stainless steels are very wide-ranging and this is one of the nicer ones to machine-and harden.

In the case of centre pin reels (not ball bearing reels) these have a very active life and with trotting etc are constantly moving so this poses a few problems.. When we talk about 'wobble' in a reel, we really mean wear and by 'wear' we mean that either spindle, bush or both are no longer their original sizes and unacceptable gaps have developed-usually at both ends on both parts. This translates into poor and eccentric running which only gets worse until the reel is no longer fit to use.
How to prevent this wear-or at least, slow it down-is the goal. In olden days, reel makers used steel for spindles which was very soft and easy to machine because it had a lot of lead in it and drawn brass, leaded bronze or 'gunmetal' for bearings as they knew that most reels would have to survive on total neglect (not much has changed..) and without any oil of good quality.. Oddly enough, this combination was ideal because the lead content acted as a lubricant in itself and was also inexpensive to produce!
Since then, both steels and bronzes have advanced greatly and it is possible to use a bronze which will run on minimal lubrication, providing the spindle material is in harmony with it.

"Clearances" are the allowed gaps between surfaces as calculated and set out by International Standards. With fishing reels, we refer to "Running" clearances with lubricants and for normal use, I use the accepted ISO tables of clearances and fits and this roughly translates to 0.003" /1" which is three thousandths of one inch per every one inch of diameter or fraction thereof. So a reel having a spindle of say for example, 1/4" diameter, the free-running clearance would be (0.003" divided by 4) which is about 0.0007". If it is less, the reel will be OK at low speed only. If it is greater, rapid wear will soon develop..

Hardening spindles is not a good thing if too hard, because the metal goes crystalline and liable to crack. Too hard a bronze will cause a seizure if not lubricated. The best 'happy medium' that I have found is a high quality tool steel containing chromium and other trace elements for spindles and PB102 grade phosphor bronze for bushes and hubs. This can be kept to minimum clearance between surfaces and providing a film of very thin oil is between them, they will last forever..Even if neglected, they will still work well.
The biggest enemy is dirt and grit particles which are allowed to build up and actually impregnate the metals, causing friction and wear.
Without wishing to sound critical or patronising, I am guessing that is what happened to some 'Conquest' reels which people say ran slow. The bronze end cap becomes so impregnated with dirt, that the running clearance against the spindle nose is almost non-existent and the reel slows down. If the inside were blasted clean with a solvent, it would run like a top again..but as said..just my thoughts..

"Oilite" As I understand it, this was devised by an American automobile company in the 1930s for their engine water pumps where constant failure was a problem. It is made by 'sintering', whereby powdered metal flakes are pressed together in a mould with heat to form a porous solid, which is then highly pressurised with oil which impregnates it-think 'tanalising' soft timber.
It is a soft metal, yet not nice to machine because it is 'gritty' and covers everything with green oily sludge in the process, but for water pumps and other closed-bearing applications such as electric motors, it is ideal and will last for years!

I cannot say if it could be used for fishing reels, but feel it would be far too soft in practice...but just my opinion.

There is also a form of 'Oilite' made with cast iron called 'meehanite' (unsure of spelling) which is also self-lubricating.
Moving the topic even further away now..I once had a BSA Rocket Gold Star motor-cycle and changed the front forks from the original BSA ones-which were too soft-to Norton 'Roadholder' ones for better handling (but need to change the fork yoke angle to suit). The bushes inside the forks were bronze and quite worn so made new ones from cast 'Meehanite' which worked like a dream!

It's a question of 'horses for courses' when choosing metals for a job. With Conquest reels, we have to remember that most are now old, have had much use but little care and oil and are probably already past their best. However, if they were to have their spindles true-ed up and new bronze bushes, I am sure would be as good as-if not better than-new..

..and i think that's about all I have to say on the matter.

wm+ :Hat:

P.S. My lathe is a worn-out, 1953 Myford 'Super-7' Mark 1 with a very leaky, total loss headstock oil system and has a plain bronze, tapered bearing.
As far as I can tell from photos, Mr.Chris Lythe has an older, but better condition Myford ML7 machine to do his finishing work with.

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? Yet one of them shall not fall without your Father knoweth" ..Jesus of Nazareth, King James AV

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Tony
Minnow
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Location: Southampton

Re: Hardy Conquest help ?

Post by Tony » Mon May 11, 2020 7:18 pm

Thank you all for your comments!

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