Mark wrote:I’m not imposing my purism on anyone, although the name of the website might just give it away. I personally will never use a boilie, I know they catch plenty of fish and if it works for you and your happy to use it, use it. I just prefer struggling to open my tins. :chuckle:
Mark,
I was around the group of lads who were making Boilies some 40 years ago and I used them to catch Barbel on the Lea some 30 years ago.
I was also on a lake syndicate where K M was the leader and where much of the work on the modern hair rig was pioneered ?
That was in the 1970s, so when does the boilie and hair rig become Traditional ?
Bob this is really hard for me to reply to. I’ve sat here and re-wrote this post at least five times as I don’t want to upset anyone. Believe me I have more respect for you and gentleman like yourself because you were and are the pioneers of our sport. You then come across some prat like me who starts a traditional fisherman’s forum, in hindsite not knowing what he has let himself in for. :chuckle:
For me Bob, I’ve not touched a carbon rod in 16 years, I have never been inside a bivvy, never touched or seen in the flesh a bolt rig, a hair rig and have never touched a boilie (I have had them catapulted at me on the bank I might add). Don’t get me wrong I have friends who use these methods and we all have a laugh, them at my tackle and the way I fish and me at theirs. They all know if they go for a pee and I’m the nearest one to one of their buzzard up rods that they will have to run back to pick it up if it starts buzzing. I wouldn’t have a clue what to do anyway with their big reels and the things that hang from them (I'm sure they think silver foil has gone out of fashion, bless em). :think:
But I think if we start talking about boilles and hair rigs etc on this forum that it will become like anyone of the main stream fishing or carp forums and this is what I don’t want. I suppose what I call traditional values are what I see replicated by the likes of Chris Yates. I really do hope that I have not upset anyone with my views on what I think a traditional fisherman is.
Mark (Administrator)
The most precious places in the English landscape are those secretive corners,
where you find only elder trees, nettles and dreams. (BB - Denys Watkins-Pitchford).
Why would anyone be upset?
One of the "problems" - "features" is probably a better term - of a site like this is that progress, be it in the understanding of fish and fisheries or the development of tackle and technique, is one of the main strands of angling tradition, so this kind of topic will always crop up, and must be chewed over like a dog's favourite bone. Somehow, if you crunch hard enough, there's always a bit more flavour left...
Edit: Just scrolled back and realised I used this example a page or so ago. Please skip to last para...
In the Boke of Saint Albans , Dame Juliana passes on the tip of burning the end of a strip of cheese, to colour it, then tying to the hook so as to look segmented. 1495 -ish.
Tradition? Cutting edge? Fly-tying meets proto-hair rig?
Discuss, and enjoy!
Ditto the modern practice of returning the catch... probably only since match-men and the keep-net (when were keep-nets invented/sold/accepted as a standard piece of match kit?)
Is a chap braiding his own horse-hair line being traditional or endangering fish?
The history of angling lays a wide array of techniques, tackle and ideas before us, and we are all free to select the bits we fancy, either as life choices or one-off experiments. No-one's better or worse for the selection they make, but it's fascinating to hear how they rate their experiences.
A forum such as this gives us a chance to reach into the bran-tub of the past and share thoughts on whatever we come up with...doesn't it?
"Write drunk, edit sober" - Hemingway.
Hemingway didn't have to worry about accidentally hitting "submit" before he edited.
I own carbon and cane and enjoy using both. However, I do see a lot of modern anglers, especially carp anglers, who have, or seem to have, lost the art of fishing by being too wrapped up in technology. I have seen anglers pack up and go home because the battery failed in their bite alarm and they had no idea how to register a bite without it. That to me is very sad. I think that (opens huge can of worms) the angling press and large tackle companies are partly to blame here. Through advertising and sponsorship of "named anglers" they convince the young fishermen that they must spend huge amounts of money and buy the latest gadgetry or they won't catch. I suppose, sadly, that is the way that life is becoming. Take a calculator off a schoolboy and would he still be able to work out a sum by long division? Use modern gear if you want to but don't forget the art!
It’s an interesting debate and I`ll chuck in my pennyworth.
I`m a third generation fisherman in our family, my fishing exploits began in 1963. I was fortunate to fish with my Grandfather who was born in 1897, he would sit quietly extolling the virtues of the modern tackle which we were using, and this was in 1960-70`s. He would tell me of the days, when he had to dry lines, getting his bait from the butcher, only being able to use a centre pin, as he could not afford a fixed spool or thread line. He fished in France during WW1, feeding his fellow combatants
Anyway my Father probably made the biggest impact on me in relation to fishing; he started fishing when he was five, ending up game fishing. He was fishing Billing Aquadrome in the 50`s and 60`s, with the likes of Bob Reynald. We recently uncovered my Fathers photograph collection from over 65 odd years of fishing, they Include all the “sacred” lakes and the personalities of the day.
The point I`m leading up to is that both my Grandfather and my Father, installed into me traditional fishing values, leave only your footprints, enjoy, help others, whilst excepting the continuing development in the tackle, green heart, cane, fibre glass, carbon,etc The likes of Walker, Ransome et al , would, if they`d the chance, would have used carbon, boron bait runners, whatever.
For me I`ll use whatever I want, be it one of my Barders or a Wilson Avon, a 1921 Hardy Aerial or Shimano 4010 baitrunner.
I write this using the latest Merlot, splitcane laptop, is that OK!
Last edited by Michael on Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I've been following this thread for a while since it became about 'traditional angling' and it made me stop and think about what I mean when I say that I prefer 'traditional angling' these days to the type of fishing I used to do.
Many years ago in the early to mid 80s I did a lot of club match fishing. I was quite successful at it, getting among the prizes more often than I didn't, but the methods I used then in matches which were usually fished on rivers were no different to those I use today on similar venues - trotting with either stick float or waggler, with maggots being the primary bait.
Of course I used glass and then carbon rods and modern fixed spool reels, but the fishing I do today with quill floats, cane rods and a centrepin or Ambidex reel is essentially the same, its the way I approach and think about it that is different.
I gave up match fishing because in the end I didn't want to be tied to a single randomly drawn swim and start and finish times. I was also treating non-match sessions as 'practice' and I realised I had swapped the challenge I felt as a child outwitting fish for the challenge of just catching a heavier weight of fish than the other competitors.
These days catching fish is only part of the reason I go fishing and using cane rods and other 'vintage' tackle adds to the enjoyment of being by the waterside and appreciating nature. I do still sometimes fish with carbon rods and poles when I accompany my long time fishing buddy or take my 12 year old son fishing on carp filled 'modern' fisheries, but I don't consider that to be 'traditional angling', I reserve that description for when I'm on the river, travelling light and fishing with cane and quill, in other words when I'm fishing the way I was inspired to do after reading 'Mr Crabtree' for the first time over 40 years ago.
So, after rambling on for several paragraphs, I suppose I've answered my own question and realised that when I think 'traditional angling' I'm applying a personal definition to mean fishing the same type of venues and, so far as is practical, the same type of tackle that Bernard Venables described in 'Mr Crabtree'. But I've also realised that what members of this forum have in common is an appreciation of fishing for wild naturally grown fish in natural, often wild surroundings where the contest is with nature - that is what I believe makes us all 'traditional anglers'.
On a more serious note, Mark don't take it to heart if a couple of chaps get a bit heated over what they think 'traditional' angling is...it is after all, something they feel passionate about. A lot.
As Yeats said...'Tread carefully, for you tread on my dreams' or something like that.
Boilies? well one could make an argument that they are traditional now, so many anglers have used them for so long...and the hair rig, didn't the chap who thought of it first do so in 1959? I believe he passed away last year.
What I find with folk like your members is that they are the sort of people who don't turn their alarm, if they have one, up to full blast, who set their mobile, if it really must come with them, to 'vibrate'.
Who would never cast out across 6 swims with three rods and never cast out to the far bank if another angler set-up over there.
They don't raise their voices and shout peg to peg and they bring cake, biscuits and tea to share.
They enjoy the beauty and craftsmanship of an old cane rod or the engineering brilliance of a fifty year old but perfectly balanced centrepin from before the days of CNC mills and laser etchers.
They're the sort of fellows who look at a Paul Cook sketch for half an hour as the memories flood back and they smile gently to themselves.
I personally will never use a boilie, I know they catch plenty of fish and if it works for you and your happy to use it, use it. I just prefer struggling to open my tins. :chuckle:
I personally will never use a boilie, I know they catch plenty of fish and if it works for you and your happy to use it, use it. I just prefer struggling to open my tins. :chuckle:
