BIG RIVER ROACH, ULTRA LIGHT LEDGER VS FLOAT

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Phil Arnott
Perch
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Re: BIG RIVER ROACH, ULTRA LIGHT LEDGER VS FLOAT

Post by Phil Arnott » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:47 pm

I have always regarded float fishing as a more sensitive method than ledger but recognise that in some situations float fishing is difficult or even impossible. Another factor with big roach on moving waters is that I would want to fish a static bait. If possible I will fish a static bait (usually bread) by laying on. This is limited to fishing fairly close to the bank and requires a fine balance of float and shot with the shot positioned correctly to allow for depth and current strength.

Most winters I spend some time fishing a very deep area of the Yorkshire Derwent. It varies between 14ft and 20ft. I have a twenty foot rod that I can use in this swim which allows me to lay on as well as trot, This is important as sometimes even the average roach (up to just over 1lb) refuse a moving bait but will readily accept a static one. To allow me to fish even further from the bank I bought my first pole and I fish it using a flat float. This system is the most sensitive method I have found and bites are usually a slow sinking of the float tip indicating that the fish are taking confidently. I'm convinced that this method will be much more effective than the ledger where it can be used.
Last edited by Phil Arnott on Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stuart Whiting

Re: BIG RIVER ROACH, ULTRA LIGHT LEDGER VS FLOAT

Post by Stuart Whiting » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:50 pm

Bluelabel wrote:One method I have used, is a running paternoster with 4 or 5 AAA strung out over 6 or 7 inches of the paternoster.... there is enough weight spread over the riverbed to hold bottom in some quite heavy currents.. you can fish bread on a long tail for the Roach or meat/cheese for the Chub... :Thumb: :Hat: :Cool:
Hi mate, I can see the logic and idea behind your rig but the 4-5 AAA is pretty much the same amount of weight that I'd use and is probably barely 1/2 oz possibly less, unfortunately the idea of having it on a running paternoster won't actually make it free running because the lead is still to light as I mentiond above,

The rig / lead will move as soon as a fish intercepts and moves a few inches with the bait, this in affect is basically a mini version of a semi fixed bolt rig :Hat:

This is something that I've discussed and explained for a number of years that it doesn't matter if the rig is free running or fixed because if a lead is less than one about 1 1/4 oz the fish will most certainly shift and move the lead, the lead needs to be at about a minimum of 1 1/4 oz for it to stay in position on a river or lake bed and have line pull through the run ring or swivel before the lead is moved,

Your rig will most certainly be fine as it clearly will catch you fish but need to be aware that it won't be free running until the weight is in excess of about 1 1/4 oz or more :Wink:
Last edited by Stuart Whiting on Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Stuart Whiting

Re: BIG RIVER ROACH, ULTRA LIGHT LEDGER VS FLOAT

Post by Stuart Whiting » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:07 am

Phil Arnott wrote:I have always regarded float fishing as a more sensitive method than ledger but recognise that in some situations float fishing is difficult or even impossible. Another factor with big roach on moving waters is that I would want to fish a static bait. If possible I will fish a static bait (usually bread) by laying on. This is limited to fishing fairly close to the bank and requires a fine balance of float and shot with the shot positioned correctly to allow for depth and current strength.

Most winters I spend some time fishing a very deep area of the Yorkshire Derwent. It varies between 14ft and 20ft. I have a twenty foot rod that I can use in this swim which allows me to lay on as well as trot, This is important as sometimes even the average roach (up to just over 1lb) refuse a moving bait but will readily accept a static one. To allow me to fish even further from the bank I bought my first pole and I fish it using a flat float. This system is the most sensitive method I have found and bites are usually a slow sinking of the float tip indication that the fish are taking confidently. I'm convinced that this method will be much more effective than the ledger where it can be used.
Interesting read there Phil, thank you for your input,

I'm fully aware of yer methods and tactics and it clearly appears that you've sussed the choice of tackle used on yer fishery,

I noticed that you mention about fishing a static bait for big river roach and this is the very reason why I much prefer to use very light ledger tactics and rove between swims, very much the same as one would for chub :Thumb:

Be lucky this winter :Hat:

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Phil Arnott
Perch
Posts: 474
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:21 pm
Location: East Yorkshire

Re: BIG RIVER ROACH, ULTRA LIGHT LEDGER VS FLOAT

Post by Phil Arnott » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:11 pm

Hi TM,

I know of a well angler who used a pole and flat float for chub so as to fish with a more sensitive setup at the far side of the river. As you infer it's less mobile using a pole and I do rove about and fish with a light ledger as well. In fact I've just today bought a very sensitive quiver tip for just that purpose.

I also found, as you probably have, that when fishing for chub particularly with bread you get some more delicate bites which turn out to be roach when you go onto lighter tackle. Having said that I've also had fish around the pound and a half mark take full size chub baits. Of course dusk is usually the magic time even in winter.

I look forward to winter fishing for chub and roach but last year the Yorkshire Derwent was in flood for most of the time. I have spotted some very big roach on the Hull which is mostly spring fed and less prone to flooding so I should really put some time in there. My best roach from the river is a frustrating 1lb 15oz.

Good luck to you also this winter,

Regards,

Phil

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Santiago
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Re: BIG RIVER ROACH, ULTRA LIGHT LEDGER VS FLOAT

Post by Santiago » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:30 pm

Way back in the 1940's LA Parker wrote that if one wanted to catch the bigger roach then ledgering would yield far more fish than float fishing. Personally, I find touch ledgering on the Thames with sweetcorn is quite productive, but to hit the bites the trick is to match the length of the hooklink to the feeding mood of the fish. This often requires playing around with until suddenly one starts to hit most of the bites ( if yer lucky). And when trotting with little success I have noticed a switch to a ledgered bait takes fish.
"....he felt the gentle touch on the line and he was happy"

Hemingway

Stuart Whiting

Re: BIG RIVER ROACH, ULTRA LIGHT LEDGER VS FLOAT

Post by Stuart Whiting » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:58 pm

Phil Arnott wrote:Hi TM,

I know of a well angler who used a pole and flat float for chub so as to fish with a more sensitive setup at the far side of the river. As you infer it's less mobile using a pole and I do rove about and fish with a light ledger as well. In fact I've just today bought a very sensitive quiver tip for just that purpose.

I also found, as you probably have, that when fishing for chub particularly with bread you get some more delicate bites which turn out to be roach when you go onto lighter tackle. Having said that I've also had fish around the pound and a half mark take full size chub baits. Of course dusk is usually the magic time even in winter.

I look forward to winter fishing for chub and roach but last year the Yorkshire Derwent was in flood for most of the time. I have spotted some very big roach on the Hull which is mostly spring fed and less prone to flooding so I should really put some time in there. My best roach from the river is a frustrating 1lb 15oz.

Good luck to you also this winter,

Regards,

Phil
Hi Phil,

It seems you've got a few quality roach waters up at your end of the country and you've got right into the specimen roach and chub scene as I have for many years, I really hope that you can break the magical 2lb barrier this winter but as we know that us still easier said than done,

Yes mate I know only to well about the very delicate tentative bites that roach can give aswell as being quite capable of intercepting big baits intended for chub, I've had roach from 1lb+ take whole lobworm with very little effort aswell as big lumps of popped up crust :shocked:

Be lucky Mate :Hat:

Stuart Whiting

Re: BIG RIVER ROACH, ULTRA LIGHT LEDGER VS FLOAT

Post by Stuart Whiting » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:26 pm

Santiago wrote:Way back in the 1940's LA Parker wrote that if one wanted to catch the bigger roach then ledgering would yield far more fish than float fishing. Personally, I find touch ledgering on the Thames with sweetcorn is quite productive, but to hit the bites the trick is to match the length of the hooklink to the feeding mood of the fish. This often requires playing around with until suddenly one starts to hit most of the bites ( if yer lucky). And when trotting with little success I have noticed a switch to a ledgered bait takes fish.
Absolutely agree Trevor, you've hit the nail directly on the head so to speak, I don't do it all of the time but when confronted with roach that are nervous and cagey I will touch ledger for em as I also do for chub, it was the well known Bob Buteox that showed and explained to me the art of touch ledgering a few years ago in his study when I got invited upto his home in Clacton, Essex, and is probably one of the very best techniques that I've ever learnt :Thumb:

As you rightly say that at times the length of hook length can also play a big part aswell, I've learnt that when roach are feeding in a shoal they are almost like competing against each other for food, through many years of studying roach behaviour in clear water chalk streams I could often see that bigger quality roach would nearly always pick up a bait and then eaither drop back in the flow or manoeuvre side ways out and away from the main shoal with food that they've just picked up presumably feeling more confident in eating without being grabbed by other fish, bit like a small party of sparrows out in the garden eating bread and then one sparrow grabs a decent bit of bread and flies upto the top end of the garden to eat it :Wink:

If one has a very short hook length IE 6 ( inches ) it doesn't give a lot of room for the roach to manoeuvre slightly before it feels tension and drops the bait, however in some cases extending the length of hook length to say 24 ( inches ) can in affect give the roach more confidence to manoeuvre a little and confidentiality take the bait :dance2:

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Santiago
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Re: BIG RIVER ROACH, ULTRA LIGHT LEDGER VS FLOAT

Post by Santiago » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:23 am

That's exactly what I find when they feed confidently in competition, they need a longer hooklink!
"....he felt the gentle touch on the line and he was happy"

Hemingway

Stuart Whiting

Re: BIG RIVER ROACH, ULTRA LIGHT LEDGER VS FLOAT

Post by Stuart Whiting » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:55 am

Santiago wrote:That's exactly what I find when they feed confidently in competition, they need a longer hooklink!
Respect Trev :Hat:

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Phil Arnott
Perch
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Location: East Yorkshire

Re: BIG RIVER ROACH, ULTRA LIGHT LEDGER VS FLOAT

Post by Phil Arnott » Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:54 pm

It appears we're all thinking along the same lines here. It's rare for me to use less than a 2ft hook length when ledgering and I would normally use 3ft for chub. I also use a 18inch link to the lead unless I'm fishing from high up in a fast current which will hold the bait off the bottom flapping in the current. Some people are surprised by my ledger rigs and I suppose it's my experience of sea fishing which has influenced me but they work well. I've occasionally seen chub take the bait on the drop which is something you don't think of as a consequence of using long hook lengths in flowing water.

Regarding lobworm and roach, my very first 1lb roach was caught using lobworm this was about 50years ago and In March 2015 I was fishing with Kev Clifford for big perch on the Hull using lobworm and caught a 1lb+ roach.
Last edited by Phil Arnott on Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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