The Holy Grail of Carp Ponds...

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Gary Bills
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The Holy Grail of Carp Ponds...

Post by Gary Bills »

We live in strange times, when old waters become commercials and commercials become established: and how does an angler assess what ripples before him, in terms of whether a pond is truly "traditional" or not?
Take Clay Farm Pond, for instance. It existed in Victorian days, according to OS maps. Did it have carp then? I don't know. I do know it was stocked with estate lake fish in the late Seventies and early Eighties, when it was a syndicate. Then it became a day ticket water, and an occasional match water. Then it was closed to the public, after some anglers mis-behaved; and then it was re-opened, albeit under the management of a farm manager and as part of a season ticket "club" arrangement. Day tickets can still be booked in advance, but this is likely to cease once the club list is full. So, it's on the way to becoming a well-established syndicate water again? Possibly - but a water that had been unstocked for a quarter of a century was stocked again last year: a shame really, I liked it how it was. But what is the lake now, exactly?
The Other Pool is a different matter: stocked 20 years ago and unfished until last year. This is close to being a Holy Grail for me, but not quite, as I'll explain a bit later. I'm pleased to say I've persuaded the farm manager not to stock it again, as we don't really know what's in there in any case. I hope he sticks to this. If he does, I'll be thrilled..
But all this made me draw up a scale for carp ponds, with full-blown commercials off the scale, at the very lowest end, and with - well, what exactly? - right at the top...
For fun and to direct thought, really, I've created a "star*" system, to grade carp ponds, and some results have surprised me.
Here's an example of three star carp water from the past (note, I'm not talking about the present set-up)...
Hunstrete in the 1950s - stocked by the Pophams in the Sixteenth Century - a breeding population of wildies/ old English commons..
Therefore, I decided that a three star water, the Holy Grail, is one stocked 50 years ago or more, and one lightly fished.
As Redmire is not lightly fished, I would make it a two star water..(!) :shocked: :Happy:
(Two stars - A water stocked 30 years or more, but fished fairly intensely..)
A one star - a water stocked twenty years ago or more - and lightly fished, such as The Other Pool..
A Half Star - the old Clay Farm Pond -stocked twenty years ago or more, but fished quite intensely...
Now, I am afraid, with the recent stocking, and much as I love it, Clay Farm is off my scale for Holy Grail waters.
It's fun, looking at one's own waters like this. Ashperton Moat, for instance, was certainly a two star, until the dam started to leak in 2007...
Size of the fish - and that's a good thing for me! - doesn't really come into it. This is about provenance..
As a say, a bit of fun: but a useful tool to assess what exactly we are fishing... :Confused: :Sun:

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Julian
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Re: THE HOLY GRAIL OF CARP PONDS...

Post by Julian »

What about waters that were stocked 'x' years ago with carp and have not been restocked with carp since.
However they have other species and some of these species have been restocked much more recently.
So that could be a water that has carp that are say 20 years old ( or 30 , or however long ago they were last stocked) and therefore has potentially some unknown and obviously old carp.
There is no peace on earth like the peace of fishing in the early mornings

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Gary Bills
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Re: THE HOLY GRAIL OF CARP PONDS...

Post by Gary Bills »

Julian wrote:What about waters that were stocked 'x' years ago with carp and have not been restocked with carp since.
However they have other species and some of these species have been restocked much more recently.
So that could be a water that has carp that are say 20 years old ( or 30 , or however long ago they were last stocked) and therefore has potentially some unknown and obviously old carp.
I think it's up to individual anglers to set the scale for the Holy Grail...so to speak...(!) :Happy:
But I'm really just talking about carp. For this scale, it matters not if other species go in, so long as we know when the carp went in, in my view. I think that if no one knows when the carp actually went in, its likely to be an old stocking. I'd certainly fish a water like that! - even if I can find out nothing more about the fish..
Usually, though, somebody knows something..

It's fun and interesting, trying to establish provenance, isn't it?
I mean no harm: although I'm aware that I'm setting my face against full-blown commercials, as an individual angler, and only for myself. I want fishing to be a little more "real", in the way it was in the 1950s - although even then there were some very questionable "instant big fish stockings", of course, - even Woldale was not exempt, with the CCC sticking in Croxby fish, and also Leneys from Redmire....

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Julian
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Re: THE HOLY GRAIL OF CARP PONDS...

Post by Julian »

Ah, now I fully understand - I thought at first you were talking about waters that also only have carp as well as knowing when they were stocked a long time ago.

How about this one I fish then. It has various species. A 1000 very small modern carp ( mirrors and commons were stocked about 3 or 4 years ago ( which now appear to be around 4/5/6 lbs), and other species are restocked over the years.
However the lake also has a lot of older carp - almost all commons - that are clearly from a much older lineage. These range in size from around 3lbs to an unknown upper limit - maybe 25lbs, maybe larger - unknown as hardly anyone fishes for the carp ( except me it seems :Cool: ). These are closer to the wildie appearance in shape and colour than to modern carp.
The reason some of them are small is that they do breed successfully.
Now with regard to stocking these carp - as far as I know they were never stocked. The reason they are in there is very occasionally in times of flood fry from the lake above get washed over/through the dam and that is a certainty - because the same situation has happened to another species from the lake above which are now present to an unknown size in this lake but have clearly never been stocked in it. I believe the carp in the lake above have not been stocked for at least 20 years and probably it is much longer.
So potentially I can fish for a significant unknown number of old (ish) carp - from a good lineage, that have grown to an unknown size, and are rarely fished for.
I would give that one two stars.
The only sad part about it is about ten years ago the lake level was lowered right down in order to remove most ( but not all) of the largest carp - which were considered a 'nuisance' to the matchfishers at that time :shocked:
However I have been told where those carp were moved to and it is a pool that can be fished.
There is no peace on earth like the peace of fishing in the early mornings

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Gary Bills
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Re: The Holy Grail of Carp Ponds...

Post by Gary Bills »

Well, as I say, Julian, it's up to individuals - my scale only really applies to "ideal" situations, and they are few and far between. Take the water I call Clay Farm - well, until recently it had two big old fish. I never caught them - I may have lost one, once...
By big, one was rumoured to have come out at 32lb or 34lb - depending on who was telling the tale and the direction of the wind!
Now, I've seen those two fish - only on a few occasions...I would say twenties rather than thirties...but as I've failed to catch 'em, what do I know? Anyway, are they still there? I don't really know. I suspect so: I haven't seen them recently.
Despite my down-grading of Clay Farm, would I be as pleased as punch if I caught one? You bet I would! :Happy: :Sun:

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Julian
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Re: The Holy Grail of Carp Ponds...

Post by Julian »

I'm sure you will catch one of them eventually :Sun:
There is no peace on earth like the peace of fishing in the early mornings

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Gary Bills
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Re: The Holy Grail of Carp Ponds...

Post by Gary Bills »

Julian wrote:I'm sure you will catch one of them eventually :Sun:
Yes, Julian, I hope so: and probably when I least expect it. Fishing's like that, isn't it? :Happy:

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Re: The Holy Grail of Carp Ponds...

Post by Snape »

FarliesBirthday wrote:Hunstrete in the 1950s - stocked by the Pophams in the Sixteenth Century - a breeding population of wildies/ old English commons..
The Pophams had Hunstrete from the beginning of the 17th century?
I am a descendent of one Wilmot Popham born in 1655. Do I get fishing rights? :Chuckle:
“Fishing is much more than fish. It is the great occasion when we may return to the fine simplicity of our forefathers,” Herbert Hoover.
`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸ ><((((º>

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Re: The Holy Grail of Carp Ponds...

Post by Gateleaner »

Nigel
Great excuse to poach Huntstrete for when the bailiff turned up.
"My good man. Do you know who I am? I'm a direct descendant of Wilmot Popham. Now if you don't mind I wish to get back to the tricky task of capturing one of these wily Carpes. Good day to you."

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Re: The Holy Grail of Carp Ponds...

Post by The Sweetcorn Kid »

Gateleaner wrote:Nigel
Great excuse to poach Huntstrete for when the bailiff turned up.
"My good man. Do you know who I am? I'm a direct descendant of Wilmot Popham. Now if you don't mind I wish to get back to the tricky task of capturing one of these wily Carpes. Good day to you."

...."and don't slam the gate on your way out, these carpes have a very sensitive nature"
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