Advice for beginner

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OldAngler
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Advice for beginner

Post by OldAngler »

I have been refurbishing split cane rods for the past 12 years, at which I think I am fairly competent, having learned the basics when I was a teenager 60 years ago. (I continue to learn more from TFF).

However, I am a complete novice at renovating centre pin reels. I have bought (very cheaply) a 3½ inch Grice and Young Avon Royal on which to practice. Can anyone point me to videos which show and explain the basics, so I do not make any stupid mistakes? I have looked on the internet but many of the videos seem to be American or very complicated. I am OK with removing old paint with Dettol, having learned that from TFF, and I use it frequently for removing old varnish from rod eyes.

The reel drum has a slight wobble, which I knew about before I bought it, so it may need a new pin or the brass tube in which the pin revolves, (is that a 'bush'?). Again, any advice will be most welcome. I have a small upright drill / press in case I need it.

Many thanks, Old Angler

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Watermole+
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Re: Advice for beginner

Post by Watermole+ »

I was a bit reluctant to answer this at first, but here are a few thoughts on the matter which may be food for thought..

From my experience, renovating centre pin reels is not really a subject that can be generalised as it depends very much on the state of wear and condition of each individual reel; furthermore, why it actually needs workshop attention.

If the owner wishes to restore it cosmetically, in other words, a take-apart and repaint so that it is pleasing look at, then that is straightforward enough and all the shiny metal bits can be titivated up to suit individual taste.

However, if it needs serious mechanical attention, then this is something that really should not be undertaken lightly.
From the moment that you slacken off that first screw, you are entering a potential minefield with manufacturers settings being forever lost and small parts disappearing off the face of the earth with consummate ease!

Notes on order of disassembly/ reassembly are rarely kept, great reliance being placed upon memory and mental notes re. “I’ll figure out where that goes later..”

The principal requirement of any centrepin is that:-
1. It should run as true as possible both concentrically on both the periphery and face,
2. It must run in balance.

Problems with the check and other mechanics can usually be sorted out by resetting or replacement of worn out parts but it is these two principal requirements (coming under the general heading of “wobble”) that will cause most concern and any attempts to interfere is to usually step onto the path of no return and should never be considered lightly.

Please do not think that I am trying to put you off from having a go, as it were, (which is why I was reluctant to post this) but you must be aware of what you are doing and-more to the point, why!

If a reel has a “wobble”, you have to firstly determine the exact cause and having done that, ask yourself if it could be rectified with the equipment you have to hand.
Some measuring and checking will therefore I need to be done firstly.

In the case of your Grice & Young reel, there are no spokes involved, which simplifies things a lot and the first thing that you need to inspect is the reel spindle.
A visual inspection will only show if there is serious external damage; it needs to be checked with a micrometer at several points along its length to see where wear and/or ovality has occurred.
Even bad wear does not necessarily mean replacement. If the mating bush in the line drum has also worn, it may be possible to skim the spindle true and make a new drum bush to suit.

Similarly, the central bush will need checking for wear along the length, besides ovality. Most bushes wear greatest at one-or both ends, more so than in the middle and if the line drum bush requires replacement, this can be done by one of two ways.

1. The best way is to press out the old bush and replace it with a new one. (Do you have the means to do this?)
2. However, it just might be possible , if the wall thickness of the bush permits, to actually bore out the existing bush and press a thin replacement into that.

To ensure that these operations may be done so that the line drum runs true and concentric, you have to set it up within a lathe, where it can be carefully checked with suitable equipment.

I do apologise for saying such things, because access to a lathe is clearly not going to be possible for many reading this, but I say it because things such as pressing out bushes, replacing them and boring out/reaming out to finished size is as already said, not something to be undertaken without very careful consideration and-without pulling any punches- understanding what it is you are doing. This is why videos and books on the subject are so few.

Saving worn out reels from the scrap heap is very commendable and immensely satisfying but by the same token, it is the easiest thing in the world to convert a worn-but still usable reel into irretrievable scrap! Far better to live with a “wobble” than ruin an otherwise, good user reel.

The spindle and central bush are the very heart of any centrepin reel and the running clearance between the two is not something easily achieved without having the means to do so..

However, that is my two pence worth and I wish you good luck in all that you may attempt.

wm+ :Hat:

P.S. A brief point re. metals.

The essence of a good runner is not just the absence of serious wear of the spindle and/or bush, it is the metals themselves.

Stainless steels seldom make good spindles unless they belong to a specific group and have been hardened. High quality tool steels having a chrome content and other trace elements are far superior and ‘run’ better with a wide group of bronzes.

Except for old, budget reels such as low quality wooden reels, brass was rarely used for the mating bush. Brass is a alloy of copper and zinc, plus other elements and has a variety of grades, none of which make long lasting bearing material.

Bronzes are intrinsically alloys of copper and tin, plus other elements in various percentages, are fused together in several ways and have a vast variety of industrial applications.
Phosphorus bronze of certain grades, made by hot rolling is one of the best plain reel bearing materials in general use.
Depending upon the percentages of the elements in it, some bronzes look like brass, but then again, so does some gold, but there is a world of difference between them, so do not judge from appearance. Even an expert could not visually differentiate between certain metals.

Contrary to what you may have read, all bronzes that contain antimony and lead are easy to machine and when done so correctly, make reel bearings which, unless abused, will last a lifetime and beyond.

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? Yet one of them shall not fall without your Father knoweth" ..Jesus of Nazareth, King James AV

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Wallys-Cast
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Re: Advice for beginner

Post by Wallys-Cast »

Wise words as always Leszek.

Wal.

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OldAngler
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Re: Advice for beginner

Post by OldAngler »

I have taken Watermole's advice and shall do only a 'cosmetic' refurb on the Grice and Yoiung 3½ inch Avon reel
However, when I removed the plastic boss on the centre of the drum face the little spring inside was broken. (The one which locks in place the litle lever which holds the drum onto the backplate).
It has a flat cross section, and is 'U' shaped, 10mm on one arm and about 14 mm om the other, which is slightly curved. Photos below.Image
I have searched the section of TFF on Suppliers of Materials and cannot find one which supplies springs.
Three questions
1. Can anyone suggest a supplier?
2. Can I buy a straight length of 0.5 mm spring wire and make my own?
3. Can I partly straighten a cloiled spring from a Mitchell 300 and use that?

Many thanks, Old Angler
Image
Image

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Russell Brown
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Re: Advice for beginner

Post by Russell Brown »

OldAngler wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:39 pm I have taken Watermole's advice and shall do only a 'cosmetic' refurb on the Grice and Yoiung 3½ inch Avon reel
However, when I removed the plastic boss on the centre of the drum face the little spring inside was broken. (The one which locks in place the litle lever which holds the drum onto the backplate).
It has a flat cross section, and is 'U' shaped, 10mm on one arm and about 14 mm om the other, which is slightly curved. Photos below.Image
I have searched the section of TFF on Suppliers of Materials and cannot find one which supplies springs.
Three questions
1. Can anyone suggest a supplier?
2. Can I buy a straight length of 0.5 mm spring wire and make my own?
3. Can I partly straighten a cloiled spring from a Mitchell 300 and use that?

Many thanks, Old Angler
Image
Image
What is the width of your broken spring ?

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OldAngler
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Re: Advice for beginner

Post by OldAngler »

The spring is flat cross section 0.8mm by 0.45mm.
Hope this helps.

Regards, Old Angler

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OldAngler
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Re: Advice for beginner

Post by OldAngler »

I have just finished the renovation of the Grice and Young Avon Royal, and I am very happy with my first attempt.

I received very sound advice from Watermole both on the Forum and by P.Ms and wish to publicly thank him. Without you it would have been much harder!

Regards, Old Angler

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Wallyboy Rob
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Re: Advice for beginner

Post by Wallyboy Rob »

I'm looking forward to seeing you use it on the Wally Rod
going with the flow - You gotta luv them gonks

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from the back cover of Wall and piece - Banksy

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