The Traditional Fisherman's Forum

In the last few years I have spent a lot of my angling time fishing for carp (on the surface mainly) in very weedy and/or snaggy awims and/ or in dense lilybeds, and whilst my Scottie MKIV (1.5lb test curve) is very good, there have been times when it just has not been powerful enough to get control of a carp quick enough to stop it ploughing into overhanging bushes or down into a snag or dense weedbed.

Whereas if I use my more powerful rods (unfortunately currently only carbon) - a 2.25lb testcurve it seems to make a huge difference to being able to put significantly more pressure on a carp and successfully landing it.

Therefore I intend to get a stepped-up MKIV cane rod as it is likely to have a test curve of around 2lbs and for my type of carp fishing I feel certain it would make a difference.

I hear where you're coming from Julian - The rod I would love to own, or at least see and handle, is the "new" Hilton Angling "Ten-Ten" - 10ft ten inches, obviously, with a fast strike and power further down - 1.75lbs test curve....originally designed in glass for Ashlea, - the rod was victor over a 28.75lb Ashlea carp for Hilton, followed rapidly by "Pinkie" at 35lbs, at Redmire (of course).
So, even in the Sixties, some anglers were looking for a little more power...

There is a train of thought that more powerful rods get carp in much quicker and leave them with plenty of energy to go back in the water with rather than using a lighter rod and playing the fish (and sometimes yourself to a standstill) leaving the fish needing much more nursing to regain it's strength before it swims off... any thoughts on this...?

I’m with Julian on this. I’ve been wanting to get a split cane carp rod for some time but have held off buying so far because I’ve not yet seen anything available in my price range with the power I’m after. I fish some snaggy and weedy waters where the carp are often in the twenties and sometimes thirties. I take the point that Walker and co caught some huge fish on mkiv rods but I have used my 1.5tc glass rod at some of the waters I describe and have felt undergunned. By contrast my 2.75lb tc (through action) Harrisons have the ‘grunt’ to stop a big carp before it gets into a situation where I have no chance of landing it so if I ever take the plunge and by a cane carp rod I'd really be looking something with similar power. That said I'd be happy with a mk4 or similar for the places I fish where the carp are a little smaller and the conditions less challenging.

Julian,

I used my Sharpes 'The Carp' MkIV to drag a 27lb common back through 2 lily beds last October using 6lb line. My point ? It is a balanced outfit that, with a correctly set 'Nobby' clutch, will land any carp.

(aside to Fairlie's Birthday...to continue from a letter of Dick Walker's dated 5th April 1972...)

given there seems demand for some of this stuff, though as it is a letter to me, I should point out that the copyright for the entire correspondence from him rests with RW's estate, not myself, I had better be selective (though there is tons of the stuff on many topics - RW was very generous with his time). No doubt copyright of whatever daft questions I asked him all those years ago rests quite rightly, in the bin....

This is the rest of the letter I quoted from before, in terms of carp rods (the first bit was personal advice on my starting fly fishing and rod building, Dick was kind enough to reply to me on many, many questions - especially building a pool and starting a new water on the rates!). As you can see, he was ever the engineer...

"Theoretically, it ought to be impossible for a fish to break an 8lbs line used in conjunction with a Mk.IV carp rod, unless the fish is able to pull the rod down to the extent where there is no bend left in the rod at all. Unfortunately, it doesn't work out like that in practice; in the first place, when an 8lbs. monofil line is thoroughly wetted, its strength is reduced by something between 20% and 30% which brings its fishing strength down to between 5lbs. and 6lbs. On top of that, there is bound to be a knot somewhere in the tackle, and no knot has a strength of more than about 80% of that of the material in which it is made."

"In other words ther is a further reduction in the strength of the line of something between 20% and 30% so that you are lucky if the effective strength of an 8lbs line, in actual fishing, is more than about 4lbs. That can be broken by using the full strength of a MkIV rod; which is why in practice, I generally use a line of nominal 10lbs to 12lbs. b.s. with a MkIV rod when I am carp fishing!"

The stepped up MkIV..."was originally intended for people who, liking the action of the MkIV rod, but wishing to cast fairly heavy baits in pike fishing, asked for a more powerful rod with the same action. A rod with a test curve of 3.5lbs. can apply a pressure, without being pointed straight at a fish, of about 8lbs. and from the explanation above, you will understand that an 8lbs. line is in danger of breakage with such a rod, long before the maximum pressure of which it is capable can be applied. I would say that an angler would be running a considerable risk of breakage if he used a line of less than about 18lbs. b.s. with a rod whose test curve was 3.5lbs."

"For fishing for the very big pike in Loch Lomond, I use a rod with a test curve of 5lbs. and a line of 25lbs. b.s., which by the time it is wet and knotted, would probably break with a pull of 15lbs. or so."

"If the rod is capable of breaking the line, then you will gain nothing by using a more powerful rod; all that will do is to make the line more easily broken"

"If on the other hand you are using a line of very great strength for the rod concerned, such that you could not possibly break it without pointing the rod straight down it, then obviously you could make better use of the strength of that line by using a more powerful rod."

"Sincerely.

Richard Walker,"
[signed] "Dick"

I hope you enjoyed this as much as I enjoyed re-visiting it all after all those years.

Many thanks for posting that, it's much appreciated.

Pete

Bluelabel wrote:There is a train of thought that more powerful rods get carp in much quicker and leave them with plenty of energy to go back in the water with rather than using a lighter rod and playing the fish (and sometimes yourself to a standstill) leaving the fish needing much more nursing to regain it's strength before it swims off... any thoughts on this...?

This is a very relevant area for discussion. Upping the test curve or stiffening the middle or butt of a rod blank does indeed help to beat fish more efficiently. The softest rods we use are fly rods that cushion fish that grow big and fight hard but, once beaten, they tend to get bopped on the back of the head and slipped into the bass. Ultra stiff casting rods will drag a fish back from distance but will not allow much firm playing close in due to the lack of shock absorption and again, the fish will often be exhausted before landing.

My forte is barbel fishing and I have seen some dreadful fishing as anglers 'play' fish for ages whilst never exerting pressure to a fish. When landed the barbel takes a lot of reviving (should they know how) and its life is threatened. I play fish quite hard an barbel are brought in as quickly as possible which is why I have moved on several lighter or soft actioned rods as they don't do the fish any favours. I'd much rather loose some sensitivity and 'fun' in my fishing in favour of fish safety.

The idea that any fish can be landed on a lighter rod (as I myself have stated), is true but it depends on the fish and the water. I used to do all my pike fishing with rods no heavier than 1.75 tc as there was little casting needed and most pike are stopped in slow Somerset Drains, very quickly. But having caught one or two Wye pike I went over to 3lb tc as I couldn't stop anything on a lighter rod.

As Walker eludes to its all about balance and having the right set up for the fish, the water and the conditions and that is why there are so many different rods out there.

TheDodger wrote:(aside to Fairlie's Birthday...to continue from a letter of Dick Walker's dated 5th April 1972...)

given there seems demand for some of this stuff, though as it is a letter to me, I should point out that the copyright for the entire correspondence from him rests with RW's estate, not myself, I had better be selective (though there is tons of the stuff on many topics - RW was very generous with his time). No doubt copyright of whatever daft questions I asked him all those years ago rests quite rightly, in the bin....

This is the rest of the letter I quoted from before, in terms of carp rods (the first bit was personal advice on my starting fly fishing and rod building, Dick was kind enough to reply to me on many, many questions - especially building a pool and starting a new water on the rates!). As you can see, he was ever the engineer...

"Theoretically, it ought to be impossible for a fish to break an 8lbs line used in conjunction with a Mk.IV carp rod, unless the fish is able to pull the rod down to the extent where there is no bend left in the rod at all. Unfortunately, it doesn't work out like that in practice; in the first place, when an 8lbs. monofil line is thoroughly wetted, its strength is reduced by something between 20% and 30% which brings its fishing strength down to between 5lbs. and 6lbs. On top of that, there is bound to be a knot somewhere in the tackle, and no knot has a strength of more than about 80% of that of the material in which it is made."

"In other words ther is a further reduction in the strength of the line of something between 20% and 30% so that you are lucky if the effective strength of an 8lbs line, in actual fishing, is more than about 4lbs. That can be broken by using the full strength of a MkIV rod; which is why in practice, I generally use a line of nominal 10lbs to 12lbs. b.s. with a MkIV rod when I am carp fishing!"

The stepped up MkIV..."was originally intended for people who, liking the action of the MkIV rod, but wishing to cast fairly heavy baits in pike fishing, asked for a more powerful rod with the same action. A rod with a test curve of 3.5lbs. can apply a pressure, without being pointed straight at a fish, of about 8lbs. and from the explanation above, you will understand that an 8lbs. line is in danger of breakage with such a rod, long before the maximum pressure of which it is capable can be applied. I would say that an angler would be running a considerable risk of breakage if he used a line of less than about 18lbs. b.s. with a rod whose test curve was 3.5lbs."

"For fishing for the very big pike in Loch Lomond, I use a rod with a test curve of 5lbs. and a line of 25lbs. b.s., which by the time it is wet and knotted, would probably break with a pull of 15lbs. or so."

"If the rod is capable of breaking the line, then you will gain nothing by using a more powerful rod; all that will do is to make the line more easily broken"

"If on the other hand you are using a line of very great strength for the rod concerned, such that you could not possibly break it without pointing the rod straight down it, then obviously you could make better use of the strength of that line by using a more powerful rod."

"Sincerely.

Richard Walker,"
[signed] "Dick"

I hope you enjoyed this as much as I enjoyed re-visiting it all after all those years.

Ah the date - I see! Thank you..

Thank you for sharing Dick's letter with us Dodger, it is very much appreciated.