Playfair Grant Vibration greenheart rod

[Sevilla315]

I have made contact with Ian and he says making a long TT over 40 yards is easy but his order book is full si I have placed a future order with him.
In the meantime I will try and work out what the best specification of that line should be.
Curiouser and curiouser..

[Sevilla315]

Lots of developments on this rod.
I went to the ponds yesterday and had a cast with my Vibration and the Carron 7/8 54' head @580 grains.
I discovered that this rod anyway is probably a very short line rod, for small fish like seatrout and grilse with small flies.
I managed to cast it short distances of say 20-22 yards, though it may have been exacerbated by the fact that I also had a 10' intermediate polytip on the end along with the tippet and wool fly. It went out pleasingly after I got the measure of it, with a series of traditional spey casts as well as some modern spey casts.
The tip felt very light, and too light to be able to turn over lots of line by itself, especially a heavy 580 grain head. It didn't feel like it was going to break though. When the rod was under load, say with a double spey and it was bending into the butt, I was able to make much better casts. With the rod not under load, say with a single spey, it fared less well, as the tip did all the work and was overloaded. I did read from Grant documents that the Vibration rod should be under constant load, so it's something I have to work on. Much more practice methinks to get the load into the butt with a big D-loop before the forward cast and perhaps a longer, lighter line, like a silk DT would make it an easier task. Certainly the Americans I have been speaking to can put out 90' with this rod using a silk DT7.
I found that an underhanded cast with this longer head didn't really work as the tip is overloaded. It needed (for me anyway) much longer sweeps to get the rod loading into the butt and using both hands - what I think is a "Highland Cast". I think I will keep this rod for light gamefish like seatrout and grilse, in small English or Irish spate rivers not very wide, on a floating line with tiny flies. For this I think it will be perfect. I have a Malloch salmon reel which is arriving soon, which will match it nicely - looking forward to refurbishing that too.
Regarding the continuous taper line, I have had some success as Ian Moxon seems very interested in the project, which is great news. He says he will be able to make a continuous taper 40 yard line, which will be usable for any rod from 12'-15', each will find its happy point along the spectrum.
He says that he has a full order book however, and should be able to start in late summer. There are many greenheart lovers who will also be very happy with these news!
In the meantime, I search for a bigger and more powerful 14'-15' Playfair Grant Vibration to accompany its 12' little brother!

[Liphook]

I suspect that your Carron line is not only far too heavy but that the modern taper is unlikely to be suited to such a rod. Try a trout rated DT 7 and 8. The line rating scales are all to pot and even gram/grain weights need understanding and checking - is it measured over the entire head length or just the 1st 30ft minus any level tip? Oh were line choice the simple thing of the past!

[Sevilla315]

I suspect that your Carron line is not only far too heavy but that the modern taper is unlikely to be suited to such a rod. Try a trout rated DT 7 and 8. The line rating scales are all to pot and even gram/grain weights need understanding and checking - is it measured over the entire head length or just the 1st 30ft minus any level tip? Oh were line choice the simple thing of the past!

I think that you are correct in that it's too heavy, but only in that it is in a short 54' section rather than a full 90'.
A 580grn head is for that length of line (54'), whereas the aftm 7 is rated for 30' (minus level taper at front). If you take the target 7wt grain, 185grn and multiply that by 3 you get 555, not too far off the 580, but the middle section of the dt has no taper so the weight of both lines should be roughly equivalent.
The guys I have been talking to are casting the entire 7DT not stripping and shooting with essentially the same rod, a 12' Vibration, but the distribution of the weight is different and possibly causing some issues.
The tip of the rod is also very light, making it difficult to cast heavy sections of line. The casting style of this rod (and I guess greenheart in general) needs to change so that the butt is flexed not the tip. When I made double spey casts, with the rod butt being loaded by the water tension, the casts were much better and much longer. The trick now is to be able to make a single spey under tension, but I suspect that in running water as opposed to a pond, this will become much easier as there will be water tension as the line is pulled downstream, as well having a long 90' DT rather than a 54' head since the D loop will be larger allowing the forward cast to load better.
I have a copy of Fine and Far Off by "Jock Scott" on its way to me, so I should get some good info of how to make a Planet Cast as Grant did, to keep the rod and line under tension during the cast. Lots of threads and posts also on various forums, also by Gordon Macleod who did some detailed descriptions of the cast and I believe did a demo of a Planet Cast.

[Liphook]

Your line is rated 7/8 on the AFFTA scale not the AFTMA scale (now known as the old or trout scale by some) I was referring to with regards to a trout DT 7 of 8 line...

I have a keen understanding of lines and fly casting having been a qualified instructor since my early days of fishery management back in the late 80s. I've learned the various disciplines of fly casting, single and double hand. I know Scot, Eoin, Ian etc as I'm lucky to develop and test game fishing tackle as part of my work with a high profile brand. At one point I competed along side them at game fairs etc.
Even I can only wonder at the technicalities and products that now flood the market - talk about over complicating things and nicheing the niche! It's not clear to the point of being a complete confusion to the average angler. The cynical could say they deliberately confuse the market with tackle choices because anglers buy into it in the belief it will give them an edge in a world of dwindling wild fish stocks. I'll leave it there I think

[Sevilla315]

I have a keen understanding of lines and fly casting having been a qualified instructor since my early days of fishery management back in the late 80s. I've learned the various disciplines of fly casting, single and double hand. I'm lucky to develop and test game fishing tackle as part of my day job for a high profile brand. I can only wonder at the technicalities and products that now flood the market - talk about over complicating things and nicheing the niche! It's not clear to the point of being a complete confusion to the average angler. The cynical could say they deliberately confuse the market with tackle choices because anglers buy into it in the belief it will give them an edge in a world of dwindling wild fish stocks. I'll leave it there I think

Thanks, if you know how to do a Planet Cast then I'd be keen to talk!
I'm doing this because I like the thought of someone 120 years ago with a tuning fork tuned rod and a hand plaited silk line, making superhuman casts with it which weren't bested till 2005! I have no illusions of making casts anywhere near that distance or catching more fish with it, just enjoying an old piece of history and hopefully getting a tug or two in the process!

[Sevilla315]

Your line is rated 7/8 on the AFFTA scale not the AFTMA scale (now known as the old or trout scale by some) I was referring to with regards to a trout DT 7 of 8 line...

I believe the Carron grain rating of 580 is for the whole 54' head, as are all modern DH lines. 7/8 is fairly unimportant since the number differs between EU/UK and the USA by 1 (US is 1 lower in general).
The DT7 on the trout scale (or salmon?) is what I referred to as having the target 185 grains for the first 30'. Isn't that the case?

[Liphook]

I'd say weigh and measure it accurately yourself rather than believe the sales blurb, this is true for all brands and actual manufacturers (of which there were only half a dozen at the last count to my knowledge, though who knows what really goes on in China?). There's often quite a difference from what is quoted believe me! This explains the 'heavy' 7/8weighing out at near as damn it the same as a 'light' 8/9! Grain/gramme detail charts can be found on Google. Note the 'allowed' variances and differences in how these are measured ie AFFTA have 2 separate charts, one for the 1st 30' less any level tip, the other not! Good luck with finding/making an original continuous taper line. Some where out there is a film of the mighty 'Kiltpin' Anderson demonstrating the Planet Cast maybe its on YT or Vimeo?
It's an interesting project so please do keep us posted

PS for my own Sharpes rod I ended up trimming and welding a PU line (mk 1 Delta Spey Multi tip in mint green) to suit my own needs - others who have cast it find it underlined slightly, but that comes down to individual casting style - yet another factor to consider!

[Sevilla315]

Thanks for the tips. The Carron line is not going to be the line for this greenheart, it's the closest I had to a long headed line. Most of my lines (except for the big 15' B&Ws which sport Gaelforces) are shooting head lines, which are all grain ratings - tbh I've never weighed them as I cast ok with them on my bamboo speys which come from the maker with a grain rating rather than a line rating, and I'm sure they are all within a tolerance.
I've just looked at a AFFTA chart someone sent me, trying to ascertain what rating this silk line he had was. It seems even more confusing as the line ratings don't relate to any grain chart that I've ever seen!
My Carron line was produced about 10 years ago when James Chalmers was still there before he went off to start Gaelforce. James sent me the grain rating for my lines as I had some American rods which were grain rated rather than line rated. From what I can gather RIO makes both Carron and Gaelforce lines, but who knows, and I guess as you say some Chinese company makes them for Rio. I remember talking to Brian at B&W and he said at one time decades ago he made thousands of lines and sold them to the tackle stores, before selling the operation onto Airflo?
I'm looking forward to talking to Ian when he's got the time, he's also very interested in the project and says he wants to make time for it. I think the biggest variable will be what the top end and the bottom end will be, ie 4-10 over the 40 yards? 5-9? all a bit of guesswork, but there will be a sweetspot somewhere along that line for any rod (within reason)! It may not be anything like Grant's line but this long continuous line was one of the supposed reasons he was able to cast such prodigious distances and I'd like to see if that comes to fruition. If not, then at least I would have done something interesting and it would not have cost much money to try it out. I suspect the man was a genius and in reality an alien super caster amongst mortals, but who's to know?
Thanks for the tip on the YT Planet Cast! Off to google now!
Will let you know how it all goes, I'm due to send the rod off to Paul next week as soon as I get his ok.

[Sevilla315]

I read on some forum someone had a video of Grant himself casting but it was "in his loft somewhere"! What a piece of history languishing in some pile of dust, but it's always the way.