'Biography' of Chris Yates' Record Carp

[Gary Bills]

The Redmire stocking was described as having a handful of all scalers (or similar) - so looking at dates and sizes I believe Clarissa would have been stocked as a fingerling. Similar for the Bishop.

I'm not sure you can state with certainty that even the Buckley fish, Cheshunt fish or Croxby fish were UK born? If you take a lifespan of up to 70+ being possible, what was the stocking date for these waters? I've got this noted somewhere because I'm a bit sad like that! I'm going to have to look.....

It's surely not clear whether "all-scalers" were part of the original stocking, Skeff - ?
"The famous Ravioli was one of these all-scaled fish, bred from typical mirror or leather fish which I handled in 1934.."
Don Leney in 1954.
I'm a sad man too, Skeff, so I've broken out "me Clifford", because you've got me thinking too...
Apparently, the Mapperley fish might have been German fish, stocked in 1911...but other accounts say they came from Burton-on-Trent...
We're on safer ground with Cheshunt, perhaps - William Senior was fishing it for carp in 1874, which is well before Thomas Ford and the arrival of the first "kings".
Croxby - rumoured to monkish carp. It would have been a small pond then..
Clifford has found mention of its carp going back to 1848, so that perhaps points to them being English fish?

[Skeff]

Oh no! I just knew when I posted without doing any background research that this would lead me into weeks of digging through record books, letters and such like..... Thanks! Here goes....

I think we are in agreement over the Mapperly fish origins. Redmire we all know..... So the question for both these fisheries is surely "Was the record part of the original introduction or a result of spawning in the pool?"

I'd suggest in both cases it's impossible to know: Both waters produced their records long enough after the original stocking for the records to have been from fry of those stockings BUT both produced records that were close enough to the original introductions for the records to be stocked fish.... Does that make sense? (I'm half a bottle of claret ahead of my self here!).

Taking Ashmead as a parallel to Redmire during the Walker era for example: Stocked with fry in 1971. Single Scale hit 50lb in 2006 but back calculation of growth shows she is almost certainly from a 1994 spawning. However, 40+ fish still present in Ashmead certainly do come from the original stocking.....

For Cheshunt, I think I agree that this would be a UK bred carp.... Need to do some reading and thinking with a clear head over the weekend! Likewise for Croxby... Do we know the longevity of wildies in stillwater in the UK? I'm sure I don't! But different strains of King Carp show wildly different longevity.

Fascinating. I'm not sure why, but it is!

[Gary Bills]

Yes, I think it's fascinating too, Skeff . Really, I only fish for carp because they fascinate me, as creatures.
Kevin Clifford, as I recall, went back to Leney and Leney conceded that some commons may have been in the original Redmire mix, but - as you say, it's impossible to know now. I'm in total agreement.
The fact we're asking questions about carp show how little we still know: not just thee and me, everyone, I think..
I mean the wildie/feral question - how long can they live...longer than a king, or do they have a shorter lifespan? That famous Japanese koi, a cultivated fish, of course, was passed down as an heirloom and lived to over 220 years! In Redmire, the kings there have made, what, 70 plus? Is that four footer, seen there by St John last year, the four footer that was seen by Hilton, Yates et al, and if so, is it from the original stocking? A thought that sends a shiver down the spine... If kings can, perhaps, live to be over 100, is it only middle-aged?
And back to wildies - as we all know, folklore has them living for hundreds and hundreds of years. In one of the best children's book ever,The Children of Green Knowe, Neptune the carp is swept from his moat by floods, and ends up on the lawn, at some point in the 1940s, - a fish that is said to have lived since the days of Charles 1! Fiction, of course; but it shows what people thought, not so long ago. Now, were those people right or wrong?
Scale readings, - when Clarissa was caught, her scale readings said 15 years. When she died, due to absorption of the scale edges, she had lost two years, and was only 13! This, as I recall, in given by Sharman in Carp and the Carp Angler. Of course, as we know, scale reading show the time it took to grow the skeleton to maturity, and nothing more...

As for Cheshunt and Croxby - we can only dream, but ah! to have fished there in the nineteenth century! Proper carp fishing..

[Julian]

While its impossible to know whether the Redmire giants came from the original stocking or from subsequent spawnings, I would think its more likely most of them were originals.

- When the 50 one/two year old carp were stocked in 1934 they then had the pool to themselves with no fishing taking place for them for a further 15 years plus. This gave these quality fish in a very rich high quality water a great opportunity to grow very fast.

- By the time the CCC was formed and the likes of Walker, Taylor, BB etc reported seeing a number of 'giants' in Redmire the carp were little more than 20 years old, and from then onwards Redmire was relatively heavily fished all summer at least.

- Obviously new carp would have been growing from the end of the 1930's onwards but I think its likely that not many of the spawned fish in there would have reached their maximum growth by the time the Redmire monsters were first being seen ( ie most of the spawned fish would be under 15 years old at that time).

- I believe with regard to age that 'raspberry' , a carp caught many times from the mid 1950's onwards, was thought to be most likely an original ( or from a very early spawning) and died about 2003 - making it 70 years old ( or at least 60+). I also believe its quite likely that the very dark 'long common' seen a number of times in recent years is the now very aged Redmire King - same length as described back in the early days but now much 'slimmer' due to its age - which would be up to 80 years old.

[Gary Bills]

While its impossible to know whether the Redmire giants came from the original stocking or from subsequent spawnings, I would think its more likely most of them were originals.

- When the 50 one/two year old carp were stocked in 1934 they then had the pool to themselves with no fishing taking place for them for a further 15 years plus. This gave these quality fish in a very rich high quality water a great opportunity to grow very fast.

- By the time the CCC was formed and the likes of Walker, Taylor, BB etc reported seeing a number of 'giants' in Redmire the carp were little more than 20 years old, and from then onwards Redmire was relatively heavily fished all summer at least.

- Obviously new carp would have been growing from the end of the 1930's onwards but I think its likely that not many of the spawned fish in there would have reached their maximum growth by the time the Redmire monsters were first being seen ( ie most of the spawned fish would be under 15 years old at that time).

- I believe with regard to age that 'raspberry' , a carp caught many times from the mid 1950's onwards, was thought to be most likely an original ( or from a very early spawning) and died about 2003 - making it 70 years old ( or at least 60+). I also believe its quite likely that the very dark 'long common' seen a number of times in recent years is the now very aged Redmire King - same length as described back in the early days but now much 'slimmer' due to its age - which would be up to 80 years old.

I'd like to think that's true about the King...

[Pyrethrum5]

Just in case anyone was after their own hard copy of this article I've just listed the original magazine on E-bay for 99p

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331171441894? ... 1586.l2649

Kind regards,

Mark

[Shaun Harrison]

Not sure if anyone has read the account of the netting of 'The Bishop' by the person who netted it?

A very different story to the one you will have read before, but I am glad John finally told it how it was.

[Snape]

That's an amazing account Shaun. Where was it published?
It certainly paints a different picture.

[Barbulus]

That is a fascinating article and great to read a slightly ,dare I say, "more human" version of that day. It also reminds me of my own words in January this year when pike fishing on the Avon and my fishing mate was "faffing around" with a deadbait and "flying trebles" and what seemed like 60 seconds after I suggested he might want to cast the deadbait in the water rather than the field....my well trained, uber expensive, teenage gun dog decided he had had enough so grabbed the Smelt and the trebles and proceed to hook himself...I regret I think I turned the air somewhat blue....moral of story is of course do not take well trained, uber expensive, gun dog, pike fishing with someone who doesn't understand that food and dogs tend to go together......

[Shaun Harrison]

That's an amazing account Shaun. Where was it published?
It certainly paints a different picture.

It is part of a 4 page article telling the full story that John Carver wrote in issue 1 of 'Sub Surface' The Angling and Culture Journal.