The Traditional Fisherman's Forum

I was chatting with a fishing buddy today and eventually the discussion came around to crucians. He asked me a question, which to be honest, I didn't have a clue, as to how to answer.. Why is it that crucians are called carp, when it isn't, Carassius carassius..
Perplexed of Berkshire

Catfish aren't cats either horseradish ain't made from horses

I thought they were a strain of carp anyway

They are part of the wider carp family, like a large number of our native coarse species
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprinidae

Loads of varieties of carp in the "carp family" - from goldfish to Prussians! I wonder where you find shubunkins, etc?

Copied - Wikki says:-
The cypriniformes (family Cyprinidae) are traditionally grouped with the Characiformes, Siluriformes, and Gymnotiformes to create the superorder Ostariophysi, since these groups share some common features. These features include being found predominantly in fresh water and possessing Weberian ossicles, an anatomical structure derived from the first five anterior-most vertebrae, and their corresponding ribs and neural crests. The third anterior-most pair of ribs is in contact with the extension of the labyrinth and the posterior with the swim bladder. The function is poorly understood, but this structure is presumed to take part in the transmission of vibrations from the swim bladder to the labyrinth and in the perception of sound, which would explain why the Ostariophysi have such a great capacity for hearing.[2]

Most cypriniformes have scales and teeth on the inferior pharyngeal bones which may be modified in relation to the diet. Tribolodon is the only cyprinid genus which tolerates salt water. Several species move into brackish water but return to fresh water to spawn. All of the other cypriniformes live in continental waters and have a wide geographical range.[2] Some consider all cyprinid fishes carp[by whom?], and the family Cyprinidae itself is often known as the carp family. In colloquial use, carp usually refers only to several larger cyprinid species such as Cyprinus carpio (common carp), Carassius carassius (Crucian carp), Ctenopharyngodon idella (grass carp), Hypophthalmichthys molitrix (silver carp), and Hypophthalmichthys nobilis (bighead carp). Carp have long been an important food fish to humans. Several species such as the various goldfish breeds and the domesticated common carp variety known as koi have been popular ornamental fishes. As a result, carp have been introduced to various locations, though with mixed results. Several species of carp are listed as invasive species by the U.S. Department of Agriculture,[3] and, worldwide, large sums of money are spent on carp control.[4]

At least some species of carp are able to survive for months with practically no oxygen (for example under ice) by metabolizing glycogen to form lactic acid which is then converted into ethanol and carbon dioxide. The ethanol diffuses into the surrounding water through the gills.[5][6] [7]

Sorry MG pressed ""enter"" seconds after your post!

So are Roach & chub classified as cyprinids, including carp and crucians, but crucians aren't carp...

Come to think of it, I`ve eaten Mars bars as well...... Just for you Loop

I was recently informed by the an Ichthyologist, they in the white coats, that they are not closely related, but different as in tench & minnow. I was wondering whether it was as simple as some Ichthyologist, in the 1600/1700`s thinking, well if it looks like a carp, behaves like a carp...therefore?
This has happened in horticulture, when some plants original classified have been re classified after further investigation, why not in this case...

Anyway hurrah, I`ve just found out I`m not alone, I`ve just been chatting to Chris Turnball and found out that Peter Rolfe and the National Crucian Conservation Project are keen to ditch the word carp from their name, in order to put some distance between the two species.

And I`ve found out that secondly, latest research* now indicates that the crucian was introduced to the British Isles and is not a native fish. By "native" we mean the presence of a fish in the British Isles before the land bridge between us and the continent was finally flooded...

* See: Jeffries DL, Copp GH, Maes GE, Lawson Handley L, Sayer CD, Hänfling B. Genetic evidence challenges the native status of a threatened freshwater fish (Carassius carassius) in England. Ecol Evol. 2017;00:1-12.

The day keeps getting better

Cheers

What ever there classification they still bite shy and fight well.

All carp are cyprinids but not all cyprinids are carp. Yeah!!!!!

The fact is they can interbreed - most species than can interbreed are from the same family. So we have crucian x common carp - crucian x fantailed goldfish (which I have caught), crucian x goldfish (caught them as well). Not forgetting roach x bream: rudd x bream: roach x rudd x roach: and so it goes on! They like to keep it in the family!

So how to tell a tru-cru - examine the pharyngeal teeth - according to the most eminent ichthyologist!

Luckily, the offspring (hybrids) are sterile! Otherwise there would just be one species of a whole myriad of odd looking hybrids and no such thing as roach, bream etc.etc.

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Santiago wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2017 8:16 pm Luckily, the offspring (hybrids) are sterile! Otherwise there would just be one species of a whole myriad of odd looking hybrids and no such thing as roach, bream etc.etc.

Natures way of saying no...........