Large-Mouth Black Bass in England

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John Milford
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Re: Large-Mouth Black Bass in England

Post by John Milford »

American largemouth and smallmouth 'bass' are not really bass at all - they are larger members of the sunfish family.

Of the two, smallmouths would probably acclimatise better in the UK, but it's probably a good job they're not here. We simply don't have the 'elbow room' on our coarse fisheries to accommodate the American style of sport fishing.

It's bad enough with bait boats buzzing around everywhere these days, without 'bass boats' charging about too! :surrender:

Black bass and sunfish are pretty things though. I've caught them in Spain, courtesy of General Franco apparently, who was a keen fisherman and sanctioned their introduction to Spanish waters.

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Duckett
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Re: Large-Mouth Black Bass in England

Post by Duckett »

Ian.R.McDonald wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 6:46 pm
Barbelbonce wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:36 pm Many thanks, Mark, for a most interesting piece of history.
I'm going to do some searching in the club's archive.....I have a years'-old memory of reading of stockings of (possibly) bass and Quinnat salmon from northern California. I will report further if I find anything.

I thank you for your (admirably restrained) mini-rant about "sea" bass: I have explained for years to anyone who will listen (and many who won't!) that we ONLY have bass in the UK. Chefs just seem to laugh!!

Mike
At last! someone who find the " sea bass" term an american derived annoyance.

The next one is " sea bream" although anyone brave enough to eat " normal" bream needs our help!. Fred J Taylor produced a complicated recipe- mounting the fish on a board and then a page of marinating and many herbs. Then throwing the bream away and eating the board😁
Our indigenous Bream that live in the sea are delicious if caught and cooked fresh! The problem with the sea dwelling Bream that we get at fishmongers is that (much like Bass) most are cheaply farmed in the Mediterranean and are a shadow of the wild fish and, like the freshwater Breams, resemble nothing more than cotton wool in taste! Most are Gilt Head rather than Black. The wild Red Bream that the Spanish catch, is also tasty.

I have no idea if it’s true but someone once told me that he’s see the Fred Taylor recipe in a C19th angling book. To my surprise, the French around the Gironde appear to use fresh water Bream in fish stew ….. I once saw it on a restaurant menu in Bergerac but opted for the Lamprey à la Bordelaise instead.

Phil
From "... the wilds of the Wirral, whose wayward people both God and good men have quite given up on ...".

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DaceAce
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Re: Large-Mouth Black Bass in England

Post by DaceAce »

John Milford wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:48 pm American largemouth and smallmouth 'bass' are not really bass at all - they are larger members of the sunfish family.

Of the two, smallmouths would probably acclimatise better in the UK, but it's probably a good job they're not here. We simply don't have the 'elbow room' on our coarse fisheries to accommodate the American style of sport fishing.

It's bad enough with bait boats buzzing around everywhere these days, without 'bass boats' charging about too! :surrender:

Black bass and sunfish are pretty things though. I've caught them in Spain, courtesy of General Franco apparently, who was a keen fisherman and sanctioned their introduction to Spanish waters.
Animal naming is a strange game; American robins are a different bird to our robin, hedge sparrows (dunnock) are not sparrows, and so on.

Small-mouth black bass were introduced into several water in the UK in the distant past but no evidence that these populations succeeded.

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Phil Arnott
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Re: Large-Mouth Black Bass in England

Post by Phil Arnott »

Duckett wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 11:01 pm Our indigenous Bream that live in the sea are delicious if caught and cooked fresh! The problem with the sea dwelling Bream that we get at fishmongers is that (much like Bass) most are cheaply farmed in the Mediterranean and are a shadow of the wild fish and, like the freshwater Breams, resemble nothing more than cotton wool in taste! Most are Gilt Head rather than Black. The wild Red Bream that the Spanish catch, is also tasty.

Phil
There's a few Bream species around our coast red, black, gilthead, Couch's and a few rarer ones. Wild gilthead exist in quite good numbers on the south coast and up into Wales, I've also had a report from a local netter that he caught two small ones up here in Yorkshire!

I've caught quite a lot of black bream from the shore in Wales like this one -

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Duckett
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Re: Large-Mouth Black Bass in England

Post by Duckett »

Phil Arnott wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 10:38 am
Duckett wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 11:01 pm Our indigenous Bream that live in the sea are delicious if caught and cooked fresh! The problem with the sea dwelling Bream that we get at fishmongers is that (much like Bass) most are cheaply farmed in the Mediterranean and are a shadow of the wild fish and, like the freshwater Breams, resemble nothing more than cotton wool in taste! Most are Gilt Head rather than Black. The wild Red Bream that the Spanish catch, is also tasty.

Phil
There's a few Bream species around our coast red, black, gilthead, Couch's and a few rarer ones. Wild gilthead exist in quite good numbers on the south coast and up into Wales, I've also had a report from a local netter that he caught two small ones up here in Yorkshire!

I've caught quite a lot of black bream from the shore in Wales like this one -

Image
Thanks Phil. It’s been 30 years since I last targeted any Bream, on the Menai Straits, and I had forgotten the list! Didn’t realise we got Red though! Funnily enough, I did catch a Gilthead on the Sussex coast about 10 years ago. I’d been lure fishing for Bass without success and saw Gars chasing shrimps so changed to a tiny jig …… managed to get a few Gars plus a Gilthead. I knew they could be caught from that beach but had heard they were a lot further out than I was casting! I’m catch and return these days, except for Mackerel, so didn’t pop it in the pot!

Phil
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John Milford
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Re: Large-Mouth Black Bass in England

Post by John Milford »

Seeing as this thread has already meandered onto the merits of various fish for the table, I thought I would share another little passage on freshwater bream.

Taken from L. W. Clark's ANGLING: COARSE FISH (1938).

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Rod Fisher
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Re: Large-Mouth Black Bass in England

Post by Rod Fisher »

Black Bass were brought to Britain from the St. Lawrence river by Mr. Beggs, a Scot, in 1878. Some were stocked in Dunrobin Castle (the Duke of Sutherland's seat), some in Eynsham Hall, Oxford, and some may have been given to Frank Buckland. Mr. W. T. Silk imported some from the Delaware in 1878 and '79, which were stocked in Burghley Park, the Marquis of Exeter's estate. George Shepard Page, American pisciculturalist and founder of the Fish and Game Commission, brought more in 1882, again for the Duke of Sutherland. Silk made another trip for Black Bass in 1882, this time the fish were divided between the Duke of Manchester, Lord Exeter, John T. Carrington of the Royal Aquarium, R. B. Marston, Wintersett reservoir near Wakefield in Yorkshire, and W. Oldham Chambers of Lowestoft, who reared some in ponds at Gunton Park, a country house in Norfolk.

Edit: typo
Last edited by Rod Fisher on Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Phil Arnott
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Re: Large-Mouth Black Bass in England

Post by Phil Arnott »

Some more fish from the USA

Large Mouth

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Rock Bass

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Crappie

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Pumpkinseed

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Bluegill

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Ian.R.McDonald
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Re: Large-Mouth Black Bass in England

Post by Ian.R.McDonald »

Rod Fisher wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2024 12:21 pm Black Bass were brought to Britain from the St. Lawrence river by Mr. Beggs, a Scot, in 1878. Some were stocked in Dunrobin Castle (the Duke of Sutherland's seat), some in Eynsham Hall, Oxford, and some may have been given to Frank Buckland. Mr. W. T. Silk imported some from the Delaware in 1878 and '79, which were stocked in Burghley Park, the Marquis of Exeter's estate. George Shephard Page, American pisciculturalist and founder of the Fish and Game Commission, brought more in 1882, again for the Duke of Sutherland. Silk made another trip for Black Bass in 1882, this time the fish were divided between the Duke of Manchester, Lord Exeter, John T. Carrington of the Royal Aquarium, R. B. Marston, Wintersett reservoir near Wakefield in Yorkshire, and W. Oldham Chambers of Lowestoft, who reared some in ponds at Gunton Park, a country house in Norfolk.
the huge damage caused by imported fish, animals and plants makes me happy that many other projects ( like the bass) didnt work

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Barbelbonce
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Re: Large-Mouth Black Bass in England

Post by Barbelbonce »

Some very good research, indeed, from Rod Fisher, for which many thanks. Interesting connections with my research: Marston, etc.
Rod Fisher wrote: ↑19 Feb 2024, 12:21
Black Bass were brought to Britain from the St. Lawrence river by Mr. Beggs, a Scot, in 1878. Some were stocked in Dunrobin Castle (the Duke of Sutherland's seat), some in Eynsham Hall, Oxford, and some may have been given to Frank Buckland. Mr. W. T. Silk imported some from the Delaware in 1878 and '79, which were stocked in Burghley Park, the Marquis of Exeter's estate. George Shephard Page, American pisciculturalist and founder of the Fish and Game Commission, brought more in 1882, again for the Duke of Sutherland. Silk made another trip for Black Bass in 1882, this time the fish were divided between the Duke of Manchester, Lord Exeter, John T. Carrington of the Royal Aquarium, R. B. Marston, Wintersett reservoir near Wakefield in Yorkshire, and W. Oldham Chambers of Lowestoft, who reared some in ponds at Gunton Park, a country house in Norfolk."
To which Ian.R.McDonald replied:
"the huge damage caused by imported fish, animals and plants makes me happy that many other projects ( like the bass) didnt work"

As promised above, I have had a ferret in an archive and, with the great help of the archivist/historian, I've found some of a club's history of messing about(!) with alien species:

Black Bass

In late 1892 debate was being had as to the desirability of stocking with black bass. No reference has been found as to whether they were
talking about large mouth or small mouth. Prices were received from suppliers and advice taken from such as RB Marston, Editor and Co-owner
of the Fishing Gazette.
By the end of 1894, a decision was reached to purchase 150 black bass for £4 from an unconfirmed supplier, although they had had previous
dealings with Thos. Ford of Caistor (possibly the earliest and largest supplier of King carp in the UK), Mr. Silk of Burleigh Park Fishery, Lincs and
Thos. Andrews of the Surrey Trout Farm (founded in 1867 and later to become Donald Leney’s operation). The Surrey Trout Farm acquired
Thomas Ford’s very extensive Caistor operation in 1907.
(From a different source, written in 1907, I found: “Thanks to the kindness of Herr Jaffé, of Osnabrück, they have raised from the egg numbers of
rainbows, steelheads, and black bass…..”).

The 150 were put into a stock pond, by now named Black Bass Pond, and thrived on such delicacies as “12 quarts of shrimp”. They were soon,
unsurprisingly, described over subsequent months as being of good size, good quality and condition, and thriving, despite RB Marston’s prescient
letter of 11 September 1895, agreeing that he will endorse the club in its application to import fish from Herr Jaffé, but he goes on to say:
"Let me remind you that these experiments in introducing American fish have so far only led to disappointment and I would prefer our own trout
(salmo fario) for stocking our waters. If they won't answer then it's certain no foreigner will." ( n.b. The species “salmo fario” was later
taxonomically replaced by “salmo trutta”).
In 1896 and ’97, after further feasting on such as 300 minnows and 7,000 small rudd, they were joyously reported as “…very much increased in size.”
By April, 1897, they were beginning to be “turned out”, at about 10”, into a much larger fishing lake, from the stock pond and 12 months later,
April 1898, the decision was taken to release all the black bass into the lake. One was caught on a spinner that month and returned…..
From the other source (1907): “There are a few black bass left in one of the ponds, but none have been caught for some time past….”
Nothing else of any significance and no catch reports have been recorded since then, save for the occasional remark announcing the netting of
Black Bass Pond – for rudd!

Quinnat Salmon

Are now commonly known as Chinook salmon, one of the Pacific species.
Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinook_salmon for the full story.

The club first harboured thoughts of stocking quinnat salmon into lowland estate lakes, on clay, (!) in 1897. Early in that year, 1,000 ova were
sent over by Herr Jaffé of Osnabrück, a renowned “Advising Piscicultural Engineer” of the time. Image They were grown-on in aquarium tanks andone year later, 1898, 8 fish were sent to the British Museum, 9 into an aquarium (later reported as “doing well”, having grown to 15”) and 80 were put into a rearing stream. A month later there was talk of moving them to another stream…..In 1899, this seemingly hare-brained enterprise seemed to have died the death, for the quinnats had escaped the rearing stream into the river, following flooding!
One year later, the rearing stream was abandoned as such “…due to repeated floods and cattle damage.” No surprise there, then!

All a lot of effort for no long-term reward.
I recently saw that the Wels has been allowed back on the Record Fish list; we were exhorted by the EA to kill every one caught, until recently.
All these alien fish seem to have been more trouble than they're worth.....
Mike
Last edited by Barbelbonce on Wed Feb 21, 2024 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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