WHAT EXACTLY IS A LEATHER CARP, NOW?

[Gary Bills]

I don't know about you fellow Forum members, but I don't think I've caught a "proper" leather for years. Modern classification seems to only accept "nude" leathers as leathers, and therefore I think my last "proper" leather was back in 1982, from a canal. It had been stocked in 1978, with some wonderful fish, including leathers, linears and fully-scaled mirrors: it was the stock to die for.
Sadly, disease struck in the early Nineties, and wiped most of that stock out..
But I digress. It seems that, in the CCC days, a leather was 'allowed' a line of small scales over the back below the dorsal, and one or two on the lateral line - in other words, a sparsely-scaled mirror, in modern parlance. Walker called his 17lb 8oz Dagenham fish a leather, but in modern terms, it was not, Who is right...?
And Raspberry was called a leather for most of her life...
And Redmire's old "nude leather" seems to be a misnomer in modern terms...
What do fellow Forum members think?

[Loop Erimder]

I always thought that if there were any scales then it would be a mirror or an almost leather and have not caught a leather an almost leather but not a leather

[Julian]

Is a leather actually genetically different?
If not then a leather is really a mirror that just has no scales, as oposed to the definition of a mirror which may have only one scale

[Woolly Bear]

A line of very small scales over the top of the back under the dorsal fin ,is in my opinion a leather ,but correct me if im wrong .Good question .Best Regards Sir , Woolly Bear .

[Loop Erimder]

Were the leathers bred that way for the table, so there were no issues with scaling the fish?

[Snape]

A leather carp is determined by its genetics.
It has to be ssNn.
Where s is the allele for for scaling and ss is mirror scaling and N or n is the number of scales with the N gene reducing the amount of scales.
Therefore a leather carp is a fish with reduced mirror scaling (probably as WB said along the top of the flank under the dorsal) not no scales although they may have no scales in which case it is a nude leather.

See my post on carp genetics http://www.traditionalfisherman.co.uk/v ... f=70&t=355

[Julian]

Am I correct in assuming that just because a carp has hardly any scales it does not mean it is a leather - ie could you get a genetically true mirror carp that has just a few scales along the back like a genetically true leather carp?

And could you get a genetically true mirror carp that is a 'nude leather' in appearance?

[Gary Bills]

Am I correct in assuming that just because a carp has hardly any scales it does not mean it is a leather - ie could you get a genetically true mirror carp that has just a few scales along the back like a genetically true leather carp?

And could you get a genetically true mirror carp that is a 'nude leather' in appearance?

Oh my head hurts! - I think we need a fish biologist, and soon...
But I think I read somewhere that, while a true leather is just another example of Cyprinus Carpio, it's muscular structure and blood vessels tend to differ from those of a mirror or common.
Is that a load of old cod (or carp)? - I just don't know...
Post thought - as with the "Wildie" question, I think the real question here is not what leathers are biologically and scientifically speaking, but what anglers think they are... ie, what do anglers accept as a "true" leather...

[Gary Bills]

A line of very small scales over the top of the back under the dorsal fin ,is in my opinion a leather ,but correct me if im wrong .Good question .Best Regards Sir , Woolly Bear .

Much appreciated, WB!

[Snape]

A leather is simply a mirror with reduced scaling.
But most anglers in my experience think they have no scales (nude leather)